Bav 38 et al

[Guest]

Re: Old for new

By all means argue about the longevity or comfort of the old heavy and new lightweight boats, but if you wanted to go fast you wouldnt consider a monohull anyway. With very few exceptions, they're all slow!

If you compare the weight of a Bav and the same sized HR there is a difference but it isnt huge. If you multiplied that weight difference by the cost of grp, then you wouldnt remotely come near to the huge price difference. What is happening is that Bav are using efficient mass production techniques, whilst HR Najad etc build in penny numbers, buying small volumes of raw material, paying high Swedish labour costs. They might be slightly better boats and worth more but not almost 3 times as much.

That of course, is why you have brand management. So you can price much higher and more profitably. Like BMW or Harley Davidson.

Its a con.

 

[Peppermint]

Bavs are OK

I've sailed a few of them and while they're not spectacular sailors they get you there. The gear they fit is ok but I'd get my sails elsewhere.

The two most worthwhile points I feel are

1. You can get a bigger boat for less dosh. This suites your new yottie more than keel shape and ultimate stability, and why not?

2. You can make money chartering one out. Well less of a loss anyway. The UK charter market charges are based on berths and Bavs have loads of berths.

The downside? You can see this already, is a load of boats coming up for sale with unrealistic prices. This level of mass production must eventually undermine the idea that boats hold their value.

 

[nicho]

Re: Bavs are OK

It's interesting though, that according to the YM Bav 38 test report, Bavaria are doubling their factory size with a view to selling nearly 4000 boats every year (currently I believe they build around 1900) - they must have confidence in their future at least!

 

[Twister_Ken]

> selling nearly 4000 boats every year<

I wish they'd devote some energy to working out where their customers are going to be able to park them.

 

[Twister_Ken]

>why should we expect a boat to last 50 years. <

How about "because they have"?

 

[Chris_Robb]

Re: Balsa core

My boat is 25 years old - I expect to own it a further 20 years and be able to sell it at the end (or my end) so 50 is not unreasonable and is probably the MINIMUM life span I would expect..

Our attitude towards cars is partl;y because they are so complex there comes a point where they are not worth continuing with.

The demise of office buildings has more to do with commercial requirements and economics. As far as i'm concerend my boat does what I want it to do, and will be still doing it in 20 years time, so why chuck it away?

I would not give the same chances to a sandwich hull

 

[jonjo]

Re: Rival 38 for 80K

I agree with you Howard. The fitment and weight differences between a Bav and modern deluxe classic do not account for the price differential, but cottage industry inefficiency does.

The next five years will be interesting, eventually one of the big 3 will conclude their growth in market share will come from adding a mass produced classic to the product line up.

Imagine, a Rival 38 or a Nicholson 38 for 30% more than a Bav 38!

 

[brians]

Take a look at....

..the December issue of PBO to see the benefits of owning as British quality boat!! Thank goodness I bought a Bav.

 

[nicho]

Re: Take a look at....

Brian,

I missed this article - what was the boat and what were the problems?

 

[nicho]

Re: > selling nearly 4000 boats every year<

Hi Ken - very good point! I guess the Solent is already like the M25 on a Bank Holiday weekend........yet the car companies (one of which I still work for), keep on putting 2 million new cars on the road every year. Perhaps we will be thumped with the (I trust jokingly) detailed congestion tax for the Solent area outlined in this forum recently.

<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by nicho on 24/11/2002 18:48 (server time).</FONT></P>

 

[nicho]

Re: Balsa core

Not sure about this Chris. Most people like to change their cars because they like to have a new car on the drive. Also, every new model has something "better" on it than the previous model (ABS, traction control, automatic suspension control etc) - looked after, most modern cars will last a very long time, but if they could, most would change at least every 3 years.

There are of course enthusiasts who like old motors (MG's, TR's,Jags etc), and spend a lot of time and money keeping them in "new" condition and roadworthy, but they are in a huge minority. It's the same with boats - many want a modern boat, which entirely fits their personal needs (like me). Others prefer older boats and are very passionate about them. A pal of mine worships his old MG TD, which is in concours condition. For him (and others from the same mould), it's the ownership of a 'classic' and the work involved to keep them mobile is what it's all about.

I often see twenty year old boats for sale, boasting new engines, new rigging, new sails, in fact with just about everything replaced, with osmosis treatment, epoxied etc - for me and many others, that kind of maintenance is a complete nightmare, but for others, it's what boat ownership is all about.

Each to his own I think..

 

[Twister_Ken]

Re: Take a look at....

On the last batch of Bowman-built Starlight 35s (1999 boats I think), the gel coat disn't adhere to the foam core. Result, exceptionally floppy boats, uninsurable, and because Bowman is belly-up owners are having to pay for repairs out of their own pockets. And the repair involves stripping off the old gel coat, and remoulding a new outer layer over the foam. Ouch.

 

[nicho]

Re: Take a look at....

Thanks Ken - ouch indeed!!

Mike N.

 

[PeterGibbs]

Re: > selling nearly 4000 boats every year<

I would guess that 40% plus of this output is going for charter - by far the fastest growing sector of the ownership market.

And Bavaria are diversifying into motor vessels too 'cos that's where we are apparently headed when we only have enough time for a quick trip across the Channel once in a while (don't forget we are all going to have to delay retirement until 70 in future to pay for the non-performing public services!)

PWG

 

[Gunfleet]

Re: Take a look at....

I know someone who has a similar problem with a recent Jenneau.

 

[charles_reed]

We're all terribly subjective. about boats

I'd never buy a Bavaria for the type of sailing I do, but for most people they're ideal for what they use a boat for.

They're extremely good value for money and giving Beneteau a sales thrashing - here in Argeles new ones are going into the water at the rate of 5 every 4 weeks.

Down below they've got bags of lounging space (perhaps fewer sleeping berths than their French competitors).

They slip along beautifully in light airs and have excellent engine and electrical systems.

They have sensibly shallow drafts allowing you to berth in most places.

They handle well under power and don't heel much when you're beating.

Their deck and ancillary gear is of excellent quality - harken winches and Rutgerson gear.

BUT

There is a necessary downside to these virtues.

Bags of lounging space leads to major traumas - broken limbs and heads in any seaway.

The ability to get along in light airs means light weight and less wetted area - and when you try to go to windward in a chop you are stopped by every other wave and have a distinct impression of being on a trampoline.

If you do a detailed examination below, you'll find lightweight lay-ups - self-tappers sticking through the grp and general evidence of hurried, unskilled assembly. (The latter, in fairness, probably better than Westerly at their nadir).

The leeway going to windward under sail is in excess of 5 degrees.

The high windage and lack of grip means that they slip downwind when manouevering in a breeze and tieing them up in those conditions is a multi-handed matter of split second timing.

So if you want a boat as a weekend retreat in a marina, if you don't go out sailing in anything over F4, if you want to entertain friends and relations and have a maintenance trouble free boat ownership a Bavaria is an ideal choice.

IF

You like to sail long distance single-handed in any wind up to F8, frequently go to windward for 200-300 miles, anchor by choice rather than use a marina - then my masochistic friend a Bavaria is not for you.

 

[kdf]

What utter nonsense. I was out at the weekend in a Bav (not mine ) in 37 knots of wind and big seas. Little but more than your limit of a F4! Boat performed very nicely. the odd slam but then again I'l l take the odd slam in exchange for the consistant 7+ knots to windward in what was a very dry boat.

 

[vyv_cox]

I agree. There are many Bavarias in Holland and they are high on the list of choice for discerning cruising skippers. I know several owners of Bavarias who use their boats all year round, all weathers, for extended North Sea cruising.

 

[nicho]

Charles - sorry, but this is completely at odds with the test on a Bavaria 36 I recently did in winds of consistant F6, gusting 7. The boat was on a PBO test sail and performed excellantly in such conditions to all points of the wind. The supposed poor quality is certainly not evident, but I concede I have not gone "behind the scenes" - on the face of it certainly no evidence of the hurried, unskilled work you detail. If they were so bad they would not be consistantly selling so many.

Where and when did you gather such poor sailing characteristics with Bavarias - have you really sailed one in all conditions or are you simply jumping on the usual bandwagon of slagging off success.

I am far from being a marine engineer, but as with most things modern (cars/planes etc), designers now have the ability to build in strength without a severe weight penalty - Bavarias bows for example are laid up with kavlar for additional protection from striking submerged objects.

I simply cannot understand why you need to make such derogitory comments unless you work for the opposition or have some other axe to grind, or are you being controversial for the sake of it? The recent YM test of the new 38 highlighted it's excellent sailing characteristics.

I agree with all your points in part 1, but not sure how you have come to such rediculous conclusions in part 2. (and yes I have a Bavaria 36 on order)

 

[Jacket]

>I agree with all your points in part 1, but not sure how you have come to such rediculous conclusions in part 2.

Surely all his comments in part 2 are true, appart from the one about going to windward in rough conditions.

However, you can't deny that the motion in rough weather will be less comfortable than a well designed heavy boat. Also, a Bav will need to be activly sailed under these conditions, whereas a good heavy boat is a bit more forgiving, and can largely be left to its own devices.

And before I get accused of slagging them off, I quite like Bavs.