A potential tragedy

[penberth3]

I'm a lawyer, but not an arse lol, but I hear what you are saying. I know that I can sue this man, only if nothing but to make his life miserable, but I'd rather spend the money on our boat tbh,.......

You really think that's a good idea?

 

[PaulRainbow]

I'm a lawyer, but not an arse lol, but I hear what you are saying. I know that I can sue this man, only if nothing but to make his life miserable, but I'd rather spend the money on our boat tbh, really what I wanted were opinions on is the criminal aspect and to canvass what people felt. I have called 101 in any event and am waiting for an officer to call us, from the fraud time. I am hoping for a sympathetic officer that although may not charge our hero, but will at least contact him and let him know that he is sailing close to the wind (pardon the pun)

What criminal act do you suppose this person has carried out ?

You really think the Police have nothing better to do ?

 

[PaulRainbow]

Something is not right here
Starting with the writing style and grammar
Then assertions of massive competency and due diligence in inspection of the product despite the reality of if you like , surveying the product after the decision to buy was taken
An amicable meeting half way might be an option -if indeed this whole thing is what it purports to be - but as a sailor myself I would be interested in hearing why the removal of a relatively small keel was undertaken at all

The keel has not been removed. All that's missing is a relatively small amount of internal ballast, primarily used to trim the boat.

 

[DownWest]

An amicable meeting half way might be an option -if indeed this whole thing is what it purports to be - but as a sailor myself I would be interested in hearing why the removal of a relatively small keel was undertaken at all

I does help to read the posts....
This was lead ingots in the bilge of the boat/ not a keel. Sounds like the seller should have swopped the lead for the same weight in iron and saved himself some hassle.

Oh, missed Paul's post..

Since you can't get a reaction from the police for far more serious stuff, doubt they pay any attention to this.

 

[PaulRainbow]

The boat is 74 years old, Lord knows how many changes have been made to it in those years. Re-engined how many times ? Replacement fuel tanks/water tanks ? How much water has she taken up ?

The trim balance would most likely be in need of adjustment by now, may as well start again.

With such a fuss about this at the beginning of the restoration, what's the chances of it ever getting finished ? The OP has no understanding of boats, a 74 year old wooden boat, in need of restoration is the last thing he should have bought.

If the OP really does want some help and advice, let's have some details of what the boat is, with some pictures.

 

[tillergirl]

When I bought Tiller Girl she had internal ballast and of course an external keel and steel bilge keels. I found the internal ballast was loose so initially I removed and stored the lead and fastened down some cast iron. And then took her out to sail. The trim was much, much better, the sail balance was perfect. We sailed across the Channel in a rather 'brisk' and lumpy day and she still sailed well and stayed afloat. So I sold the lead. Later I replaced the engine with a modern one; I halved the weight involved. And the trim was improved further (I have the photos to prove). And the sailing improved. Then many years later I discovered that the steel bilge keels were a non-designed addition. I discussed the pros and cons with a surveyor and removed them (storing them ashore) subject to some simple tests. The tests were all passed and so I went out to sail. Oh dear. I always used to approach my swinging mooring by losing way to stop right by the mooring. None of that engine in reverse nonsense. Oh dear, when I had removed the bilge keels, she carried way significantly past the mooring. Oh dear, I had lost the drag!

It just goes to show that loosing the internal ballast isn't necessily a disaster!

Paul has just added some comments as I typed this!

PS Piccies please.

 

[peteK]

The ownerwas probably about to scrap the boat and weighed in the lead.

 

[Blueboatman]

I does help to read the posts....
This was lead ingots in the bilge of the boat/ not a keel. Sounds like the seller should have swopped the lead for the same weight in iron and saved himself some hassle.

Oh, missed Paul's post..

Since you can't get a reaction from the police for far more serious stuff, doubt they pay any attention to this.

Ta
Amazing what one can miss ?
So trimming ballast .
Well that’s easily replaced
Trim is played around with by shifting adding or subtracting ballast , and just maybe with modern sailcloth ( say) the boat generates less heel and more drive per wind force when beating so there for example ‘might’ be just one reason for one owners thinking behind removing the internal trim lead.
We don’t know and won’t know more until……

 

[Bajansailor]

@theresamh if you want folk to help you, please at least oblige by providing some more information about the boat.
A photo can tell a thousand words, so a few photos would be useful.

 

[pandos]

You really think that's a good idea?

Of course it's a good idea,

Part of what's wrong with society is that shysters are taking advantage of decent people's fear of beginning litigation, which is probably caused by a lack of knowledge of the law and to some extent a lack of respect for lawyers and the civil process.

If the OP can do this work himself it maybe a good opportunity to show that not everyone will allow dispicable behaviour to go by unpunished and potentially influence the hero's behaviour into the future.


AFAIK Sueing this man will not require involvement for the police and neither is allegation of a criminal offence necessary.

 

[jamie N]

Didn't take long for mild antipathy to arrive, did it?

 

[PaulRainbow]

Of course it's a good idea,

Part of what's wrong with society is that shysters are taking advantage of decent people's fear of beginning litigation, which is probably caused by a lack of knowledge of the law and to some extent a lack of respect for lawyers and the civil process.

If the OP can do this work himself it maybe a good opportunity to show that not everyone will allow dispicable behaviour to go by unpunished and potentially influence the hero's behaviour into the future.


AFAIK Sueing this man will not require involvement for the police and neither is allegation of a criminal offence necessary.

Suing him for what ?

 

[pandos]

Didn't take long for mild antipathy to arrive, did it?

More like hostility...but obviously that's ok because the OP confessed to being a lawyer??

Suing him for what ?

OP has already outlined the basis,

I suspect misrepresentation,

but I think the point being made is that even if the OP were to eventually win or to lose they could sue and have the satisfaction of upsetting the guy and this might save others from deceitful/potentially dangerous acts.

 

[UK-WOOZY]

i want to see some photos of the boat

 

[KeelsonGraham]

Little doubt about what you think of lawyers...☺☺

Bitter experience.

 

[Jim@sea]

Is the seller selling as a business?
That makes a difference.

If it is a private person selling not in the line of a business, then I doubt there are any worthwhile avenues to pursue.

If it is a business, you might just be able to insist on a return of goods and a refund.

I would have a go at making a claim in the small Claims court. Send him a letter saying the boat was not as described and you want a full refund.
The way I look at it is that the said "The yacht is perfectly fit to sail" But for it to sail it would need the Lead Ballast. The fact he removed it and did not tell you that what constitutes part of the construction of a yacht has been removed does not help his case. Its worth trying a Small Claims Court Action. I believe that tere is something now called Letter Before Action. Certainly get this before a magistrate. If he replies that he wont give you your money back and you go to court get a Surveyor to just look at where the ballast should be and preopare a letter stating that the Ballast has been removed. The only time I have lost a Small Claims action s that I did not have an Expert Witness Letter. Good luck.
PS when I bought a 1985 yacht which was of a make sold for home construction some people used lead ballast, the one bought had ordinary concrete poured into the bilges, perhaps that could be done.

 

[PaulRainbow]

More like hostility...but obviously that's ok because the OP confessed to being a lawyer??

OP has already outlined the basis,

I suspect misrepresentation,

but I think the point being made is that even if the OP were to eventually win or to lose they could sue and have the satisfaction of upsetting the guy and this might save others from deceitful/potentially dangerous acts.

How so ?

The seller advertised a boat, the buyer responded to the ad'. Seller goes to look at boat, which at the time he looked did not have any internal lead for trimming the boat. Seller buys the boat. It's the boat he looked at, in the condition he saw it in, with the lead never being there when he viewed it.

Misrepresented how ?

 

[penberth3]

Of course it's a good idea,

Part of what's wrong with society is that shysters are taking advantage of decent people's fear of beginning litigation, which is probably caused by a lack of knowledge of the law and to some extent a lack of respect for lawyers and the civil process.

If the OP can do this work himself it maybe a good opportunity to show that not everyone will allow dispicable behaviour to go by unpunished and potentially influence the hero's behaviour into the future.


AFAIK Sueing this man will not require involvement for the police and neither is allegation of a criminal offence necessary.

I think you've missed the bit I highlighted. The OP suggested legal action just to cause some inconvenience to the other party.

Do you still think that's a good idea?

 

[PaulRainbow]

I would have a go at making a claim in the small Claims court. Send him a letter saying the boat was not as described and you want a full refund.
The way I look at it is that the said "The yacht is perfectly fit to sail" But for it to sail it would need the Lead Ballast.

That's nonsense, see post #86

The OP bought a project boat, in need of restoration, he got what he looked at. It would be like saying he could sue the seller because the engine isn't the original one, or the genoa is smaller than the original one etc etc etc

 

[NormanS]

I don't know what all the fuss is about. The OP got the boat that he saw. If he didn't have the knowledge to check on the boat himself, he should have employed someone who did. One of life's lessons. Anyway, the price of a little ballast will pale into insignificance, once the real work begins.