Who should be blamed in this collision???
- Thread starter Leonidas
- Start date
maxi77
Active member
I think the thing most of us have difficulty in coming to terms with is how the h*ll did he think it was a sensible option to try and pass ahead. I also have difficulty is seeing how any one could consider passing ahead under those circumstances considering the manoeuvrability of the target etc as the least worst of a bad set of choices.
LONG_KEELER
Well-known member
I would like to compliment Flaming on his contribution to this thread.
With some skill, and excellent knowledge he has tried to explain what may have happened, how it came about and probably what we can all learn from this experience.
There has been no condemnation of the skipper, other than , supporting action IF it is found necessary.
I suppose we are all right from our own point of view but I have learned a lot from this thread.
With some skill, and excellent knowledge he has tried to explain what may have happened, how it came about and probably what we can all learn from this experience.
There has been no condemnation of the skipper, other than , supporting action IF it is found necessary.
I suppose we are all right from our own point of view but I have learned a lot from this thread.
Leonidas
Member
dancrane;3095837 Why the silence on their part? Why said:
LONG_KEELER
Well-known member
Having had no experience of big boat racing, what is the procedure of look out's on a boat of this kind ?
Presumably, a bowman, tactician, helmsman and possibly the skipper ?
The rest would be trimming sails etc. Would they be offering continuous feedback to the skipper ?
Is it possible that a total RN crew, and skipper, are likely to be inexperienced with a boat and race like this ?
There always seems to be pressure on the RN to be good at all forms of sailing/boating/ships.
l'escargot
New member
You don't know that he did think it was a sensible option. You don't know what was said to him by the escort boat. You probably don't know anything that was happening outside of the view of the YouTube video or the other side of the ship. Think outside of "passing ahead" as well - his intended destination (and that of the ship) wasn't where he was heading at the time of collision. I would think more on two converging vessels each turning to starboard - and one didn't.
dancrane
Well-known member
Ought a 124,000 tonne crude-carrier to steer hard to starboard in a channel with limited space, on account of somebody drifting or driving blind into a trouble spot?
Just by suggesting that this yacht may have had any good reason to be where she was, contributors here risk appearing to deny the excellent basis for the exclusion zones round heavy shipping.
Would any of the seeming apologists/alternativist-cleverdick-theorists like to dream-up genuinely adequate, acceptable reasons for this crew powering blindly (or daftly) into the situation that nearly did for them all?
We, who have drawn our conclusions from the fact that the yacht seems to have been steered into a position where the ship had a reason and right to be, are apparently closed-minded for not recognising that "there must be more to it".
Such as what? I'm not blind to good reasons, but I haven't read any here, yet.
On a lighter note, what exactly is this yacht called? I thought it was Atlanta, but I've seen Atalanta, Alcantara and others.
Just by suggesting that this yacht may have had any good reason to be where she was, contributors here risk appearing to deny the excellent basis for the exclusion zones round heavy shipping.
Would any of the seeming apologists/alternativist-cleverdick-theorists like to dream-up genuinely adequate, acceptable reasons for this crew powering blindly (or daftly) into the situation that nearly did for them all?
We, who have drawn our conclusions from the fact that the yacht seems to have been steered into a position where the ship had a reason and right to be, are apparently closed-minded for not recognising that "there must be more to it".
Such as what? I'm not blind to good reasons, but I haven't read any here, yet.
On a lighter note, what exactly is this yacht called? I thought it was Atlanta, but I've seen Atalanta, Alcantara and others.
rob2
Active member
I wonder how many who have posted here actually sail in the area in question? The exclusion zone for a vessel is continuously changing - like a spotlight sweeping before it. You can be well clear one moment and within the zone in an instant as the ship swings. In fact, if the zone sweeps across you, you can go from being in the forward projection of the zone to being well clear alongside.
One could suggest that the course set was ill-advised as traffic always coincides with high tide, but then it is the responsibility of the skipper to comply with the colregs whether racing or not. For those of a certain age, there have been far more ridiculous racing incidents - like an offshore powerboat race not being cancelled in heavy fog. One boat ran onto rocks close to shore at full throttle!
I have been signalled by the guard boat once as a ship entering Southampton was taking a turn to port before commencing his swing to starboard - you just don't know until the launch signals you. Luckily in my case, we had just tacked to increase the clearance and the warning was not to tack back. It is uncommon for the accompanying launch to communicate by radio, which has resulted in confusion before and the loss of a yacht. Once you get too close to a mountainous hunk of iron, there is little chance of navigating as the wind shadow precludes sailing away and the bow wave can drag you onto the vessel. I have every sympathy with the skipper of the yacht in question, especially if he was unfamiliar with the area. There, but for the grace...
Rob.
One could suggest that the course set was ill-advised as traffic always coincides with high tide, but then it is the responsibility of the skipper to comply with the colregs whether racing or not. For those of a certain age, there have been far more ridiculous racing incidents - like an offshore powerboat race not being cancelled in heavy fog. One boat ran onto rocks close to shore at full throttle!
I have been signalled by the guard boat once as a ship entering Southampton was taking a turn to port before commencing his swing to starboard - you just don't know until the launch signals you. Luckily in my case, we had just tacked to increase the clearance and the warning was not to tack back. It is uncommon for the accompanying launch to communicate by radio, which has resulted in confusion before and the loss of a yacht. Once you get too close to a mountainous hunk of iron, there is little chance of navigating as the wind shadow precludes sailing away and the bow wave can drag you onto the vessel. I have every sympathy with the skipper of the yacht in question, especially if he was unfamiliar with the area. There, but for the grace...
Rob.
l'escargot
New member
No, but they do have to turn hard to starboard at that point to arrive at their intended destination. The crude carrier was not intending to carry on on the course he was on, he had every intention of turning hard to starboard ( it has even been suggested that he signalled as such) and then didn't for some reason.
We then have a yacht under spinnaker on a reach committed to a turn to starboard (perhaps even manoeuvring under instruction of the escort boat) that cannot turn any further or they will luff up in the path of that ship.
I find such an explanation much more plausible than the "I know the boat was crewed by a bunch of blind idiots who didn't what they were doing because I've seen it on YouTube....".
dancrane
Well-known member
You don't find an instance of a keen racing crew pushing its luck, plausible?
Do we know if any part of the Cowes Week racing set-up ensures that all yachts' skippers are aware of the unusual changes of direction which shipping follows in this area? If not, this surely ought to be made clear in advance of racing for the future. If only in order to stress the necessity of standing well clear.
Perhaps one can't presume that all skippers will have studied charts/almanacs/pilot books. Though it's a lousy skipper who doesn't.
Do we know if any part of the Cowes Week racing set-up ensures that all yachts' skippers are aware of the unusual changes of direction which shipping follows in this area? If not, this surely ought to be made clear in advance of racing for the future. If only in order to stress the necessity of standing well clear.
Perhaps one can't presume that all skippers will have studied charts/almanacs/pilot books. Though it's a lousy skipper who doesn't.
l'escargot
New member
At Cowes you can, even to the extent of there being special charts, pilot books and tidal atlases. Because if you don't you cannot hope to be competitive. The keener the racing crew, the more knowledge you will have.
What you can presume is that the fiercest critics on here and the "they must be stupid" brigade have little knowledge of the area and probably have never sailed there or even looked at a chart or tidal atlas of the area - their views are based on YouTube.
dancrane
Well-known member
If as you imply, this could so easily have happened to any wholly competent skipper, simply as a consequence of the muddling combinations of circumstances that exist just there...why is the actuality so rare?
If you're certain that this crew did know what it was doing, and is being judged harshly about an occurrence they were powerless to avoid...you might like to explain (as none of them seems to have wanted to) what factor led them inextricably into such terrifying peril?
Warning - Internet forums may contain twits
If you're certain that this crew did know what it was doing, and is being judged harshly about an occurrence they were powerless to avoid...you might like to explain (as none of them seems to have wanted to) what factor led them inextricably into such terrifying peril?
Warning - Internet forums may contain twits
Bru
Well-known member
Well, I've never sailed there but I am curious about one thing ...
Why on earth would a skipper lay a course that puts his vessel on the starboard side of an incoming large ship when it is a cast iron guaranteed certainty that said large ship is going to be executing a turn to starboard?
It seems from the AIS track that the tanker did exactly what one would expect i.e. pretty much exactly followed the "likely track" depicted on the chartlet in the relevant Notice to Mariners so, racing or not, surely good seamanship would be to head to the South of the precautionary area - and thus ensure that any large vessel is going to be turning away from rather than towards your own projected track?
Now granted I'm basing that on the analysis of the yachts probable course posted earlier by VicS and also I realise that this isn't the way to win races (I've never been much of a competitor even in my dinghy racing days) but my suspicion is that the collision was the end result of a downward spiral of increasingly desperate decision making that began with the decision to head through or to the North of, rather than around the South side of the area where large ships turn into the channel
Somebody will probably now tell me all the reasons why I'm completely wrong
Oh and I post the above in a spirit of inquiry for the purposes of furthering my own knowledge NOT out of any intent to show up the poor s*d skippering the yacht in question (who has my sympathy 'cos we've all c*cked it up at one time or another and got away with it or did it when nobody was looking and he's now got to live with the infamy of not only getting it spectacularly wrong but of being named and shamed as the lead character in a video clip that will hang around for the rest of time!)
l'escargot
New member
I have made no such suggestion, though in identical circumstances it could, but as you say such circumstances are rare.
I don't know for certain, but I am open to considering all factors that contributed to the collision. I am also sure that the crew (and ships crew, escort boat crew, pilot and informed witnesses) have all given their accounts to those that matter.
For what it's worth I think it possible that the planned courses were more or less as per Vics's nice diagram, with Altalanta turning to starboard and dipping behind the stern of the ship if it hadn't passed clear and never even entering the exclusion zone whilst in the precautionary area. Then, for whatever reason, the ship didn't continue the turn (that it had signalled and begun making) and Atalanta found itself in a developing head on situation and turned further to starboard entirely in accordance with colregs but reached the stage where she could turn no more without luffing up. That I believe was the critical point and where the escort boat became involved. I think most skippers at that point would have turned to port to avoid collision, back to the wind with more options in a developing situation that was otherwise going to leave them with the options of luffing up or being run down, possibly both. It wouldn't surprise me to find out that the escort boat told them at that critical point, effectively removing any other option, to maintain their course as the ship had enough turn on it to avoid them, this instruction possibly having been conveyed from the pilot who was aware of the entire situation. Unfortunately they then lost wind from the spinnaker, slowed slightly and a near miss became a near hit.
You can take it or leave it, it is purely a personal view, but I suspect it is based on far more fact and considered opinion than any view that you have expressed. We won't know until the outcome of the MAIB report but I would put money on the report coming up with circumstances more comparable to my view of events than yours.
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l'escargot
New member
I don't think he did, I think at the early stages he thought that the ship would pass in front of him and if it didn't he would dip behind it's stern. The situation then unwound in a different way...
dancrane
Well-known member
QUOTE (Escargot): "...with Altalanta turning to starboard..."
Altalanta? Which boat is that? God, not another one?
I don't see that Escargot's "purely...personal view" is based on anything more than whimsical disinclination to recognise what's pretty clear to most of us - a spot of dopey optimism on this skipper's part, compounded by his sloth in playing safe.
The suggestion that he couldn't have safely stayed on the tanker's starboard side is pretty sheer speculation, and seems to imply there must have been insistent yet misjudged instruction from the escort boat.
Presumptions on the part of most of this thread's contributors (mine included), are based on what is apparent, plus a little local knowledge. Snailie's theory is that something (wholly unspecified) forced the skipper's hand.
I don't believe it. He unwisely came close inside a zone of probable danger, and couldn't back out when it really mattered.
P.S., Escargot...I thought for a mo, you'd typed 'Internet forums may contain UNIFORMED twits!! Presumably the RN crew weren't in their scrambled-egg caps, that day??
Altalanta? Which boat is that? God, not another one?
I don't see that Escargot's "purely...personal view" is based on anything more than whimsical disinclination to recognise what's pretty clear to most of us - a spot of dopey optimism on this skipper's part, compounded by his sloth in playing safe.
The suggestion that he couldn't have safely stayed on the tanker's starboard side is pretty sheer speculation, and seems to imply there must have been insistent yet misjudged instruction from the escort boat.
Presumptions on the part of most of this thread's contributors (mine included), are based on what is apparent, plus a little local knowledge. Snailie's theory is that something (wholly unspecified) forced the skipper's hand.
I don't believe it. He unwisely came close inside a zone of probable danger, and couldn't back out when it really mattered.
P.S., Escargot...I thought for a mo, you'd typed 'Internet forums may contain UNIFORMED twits!! Presumably the RN crew weren't in their scrambled-egg caps, that day??
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Leonidas
Member
QUOTE (Escargot): "...with Altalanta turning to starboard..."
I don't believe it. He unwisely came close inside a zone of probable danger, and couldn't back out when it really mattered.
Given the circumstances, would using his engine to get out of trouble be an option ??? (Just asking !)
l'escargot
New member
What, a YouTube video and "I've seen the Solent on Google Earth".
It is quite specific about a combination of factors if you read my post fully.
l'escargot
New member
Yes I think it probably was.
