Wansworth
Well-known member
But I have noticed many people sell their yacht minus the vane gear?
Which boat to buy?
- Thread starter MisterBaxter
- Start date
Frogmogman
Well-known member
Great shout, if you can find one, particularly the lift-keel version.
Also worth considering the older generation Doug Peterson designed Contessa 28, they are good, well built sailing boats, usually for pretty sensible money. Not available in twin keel or lift keel mind you.
Praxinoscope
Well-known member
I still regret leaving the Navik on my last boat when I sold it, superb piece of kit, if only Plastimo still made them.
Kelpie
Well-known member
There's a Hebridean for sale near Cartagena just now... that's a wee bit far from Galicia but it's s lovely city...
PhillM
Well-known member
TBH I was thinking that by the time you have redone the standing rigging and updated running rigging, perhaps a new set of sails and you will have burned through the best part of £5k.
Add to that outdated electrics e.g new battery, charger, nav lights, cabling, new VHF antenna, changed seacocks, etc (which I note are now part of the 10-year refresh required by some insurers) and other basics like a general overhaul of the engine, and you could add at least another £5K to that cost.
All I am trying to say is that a project boat costs far more than the price of the boat. Even my little Corribiee is costing upwards of £7500 to get back into a serviceable state. I am not trying to put anyone off but just saying go in with your eyes open. A low-cost boat isn't. However, once you have done the work you will know all you need to to keep her in excellent (safe) condition for years to come. Just remember that most boats for sale are at the end of the serviceable life of a lot of their kit, hence the price.
So in my view buy a cheap boat and do all a refit. At least that way you know that it is in great condition for the next 10 years.
ridgy
Well-known member
"So in my view buy a cheap boat and do all a refit. At least that way you know that it is in great condition for the next 10 years."
Absolutely right, I recently bought a 32' boat for 6k and will spend another 4k on it in the coming months but then I will know that it is re-rigged, rewired, re-seacocked, re-upholstered, re-headlined, re-instrumented, re-exhausted, and re-sternglanded. The engine starts on the button so that's all good. People say that its cheaper to buy one will things done but personally I like to know that things are done to the right standard with the right bits. All these items are consumables at the end of the day so while it may cost more to buy a fixer-upper and sort it, actually it works out because you get the full lifetime of those bits, the knowledge that they are the right bits, and when its blowing at 3am you know the status of everything.
Plus some of us actually enjoy and take pride in doing the work.
I would agree that serious structural repairs are a total non starter though. This is the joke advert of the week,:
SIGMA 33 STORM DAMAGED YACHT PROJECT | eBay
Absolutely right, I recently bought a 32' boat for 6k and will spend another 4k on it in the coming months but then I will know that it is re-rigged, rewired, re-seacocked, re-upholstered, re-headlined, re-instrumented, re-exhausted, and re-sternglanded. The engine starts on the button so that's all good. People say that its cheaper to buy one will things done but personally I like to know that things are done to the right standard with the right bits. All these items are consumables at the end of the day so while it may cost more to buy a fixer-upper and sort it, actually it works out because you get the full lifetime of those bits, the knowledge that they are the right bits, and when its blowing at 3am you know the status of everything.
Plus some of us actually enjoy and take pride in doing the work.
I would agree that serious structural repairs are a total non starter though. This is the joke advert of the week,:
SIGMA 33 STORM DAMAGED YACHT PROJECT | eBay
Tranona
Well-known member
Perhaps you can report back after you have done all that work with your REAL expenditure and how far it is from your estimate! (I have just done all of this except the headlining on the same size boat and I can tell you that you £4k won't get you very far down that list.)
BobnLesley
Well-known member
Albin Vega would fit the bill, single keeled but works well with legs or just drying out against walls
Wansworth
Well-known member
Except that going backwards malarkey?
ridgy
Well-known member
I've noted your various reports of expenditure on your own boat and thought they were high, or perhaps could have been less.
I do however thoroughly respect your obvious experience and your tremendous contribution to this forum.
This is my fourth yacht over the last 20 years, I've always been in to projects for the reasons given and have performed all of these tasks before so I will gladly the numbers next March when it's all done. Remind me if I forget.
I'm entirely DIY though and can accept lower cosmetic but not mechanical standards.
My wife doesn't know it yet but I bought her a sewing course for Xmas to go with the very sturdy sewing machine that I bought her last Xmas and I might have picked the upholstery fabric already.
It's almost as if I had a plan.
Supertramp
Well-known member
You might be very lucky and find a boat you like, well maintained and not needing major work.
In reality there will probably be some items to do initially. After that there will be a continuous program of foreseeable replacement and improvement which needs planned over years. There are various pieces of wisdom about spending 10% of the boats value each year or similar but that works less well on older and lower value boats (think engine replacement).
A better way to do it is to decide how much you expect or want to spend over 5 or 10 years. Factor in all the costs including berthing, insurance, routine maintenance plus the cost of buying the boat. For me this approach helped me put the cost of the boat and its repair, maintenance and improvement into some sort of balance. As others have said, don't underestimate these costs, and especially what you can do yourself versus items beyond your confidence.
It makes it easier to evaluate the real costs and work involved over a long period and set these against the initial purchase price of the particular boat.
When considering older boats, the purchase price may become a relatively small part of the total spend over 5 or 10 years. What does that mean? Only that you should consider the whole picture and use that to help choose the right boat with a plan of foreseeable works that you can afford to live with long term.
I bought an older boat that appealed and am steadily repairing and improving. It feels good to know every inch of the boat and its systems and to have confidence in its integrity. The significant costs incurred were more or less predicted. A newer boat might have avoided some costs but the 5 or 10 year cost would not be so different. Start with a total and work out how much of that can be the purchase price.
Hope that makes sense.
In reality there will probably be some items to do initially. After that there will be a continuous program of foreseeable replacement and improvement which needs planned over years. There are various pieces of wisdom about spending 10% of the boats value each year or similar but that works less well on older and lower value boats (think engine replacement).
A better way to do it is to decide how much you expect or want to spend over 5 or 10 years. Factor in all the costs including berthing, insurance, routine maintenance plus the cost of buying the boat. For me this approach helped me put the cost of the boat and its repair, maintenance and improvement into some sort of balance. As others have said, don't underestimate these costs, and especially what you can do yourself versus items beyond your confidence.
It makes it easier to evaluate the real costs and work involved over a long period and set these against the initial purchase price of the particular boat.
When considering older boats, the purchase price may become a relatively small part of the total spend over 5 or 10 years. What does that mean? Only that you should consider the whole picture and use that to help choose the right boat with a plan of foreseeable works that you can afford to live with long term.
I bought an older boat that appealed and am steadily repairing and improving. It feels good to know every inch of the boat and its systems and to have confidence in its integrity. The significant costs incurred were more or less predicted. A newer boat might have avoided some costs but the 5 or 10 year cost would not be so different. Start with a total and work out how much of that can be the purchase price.
Hope that makes sense.
Tranona
Well-known member
I know that some of my costs have been higher than others might pay, but this is usually because I have paid somebody else to do the work (upholstery as an example, although I doubt you could have got it done professionally for much less than I paid), but I don't think I have ever paid significantly over the odds for any materials. For example today I have just bought an ST2000 for £440, and a 10kgs Epsilon for £170 - compare those prices with what is on offer generally. I don't know what you are doing for rigging, but a typical 10 -12m masthead rig has 10 stays and if you replace the turnbuckles using Stalok, say 7/16" they are over £70 each, and a complete masthead stay with terminals is well over £150. I know there are cheaper products available, and you don't have to replace turnbuckles, but just the wires are going to be around £700 in materials alone if you use the best wire. Similar with rewiring, it depends on what you mean and the quality of the materials you use. Tinned cable is typically 15% more expensive than non tinned, AGMs are 40% more than Leisure batteries. What instruments are you including ?
Sorry if it sounds nit picking, but £4k and that list does not seem right - but I can wait until march to find out how you did it.
PhillM
Well-known member
I think that this is a very insightful post. Not least because after that 10 year period most of what you will have done to the boat at the start will need to be done again. So you will have had the full use of it, but conversely, it will not have added much value (if any) to the boat. My last boat was wooden. Bought for about £3K, spent about £30K in the first few years, sailed/owned for 12 years. Sold for just over £3K. The new owners are now starting out on their own refit. I expect it will cost them about the same as mine, although some of what I did (e.g. new engine) doesn't need re-doing, and other jobs will need to be done. The point is that I see £3K a year excluding mooring costs as a reasonable cost of own my own boat.
I expect that my 'new to me' Corribee will cost somewhere in the region of purchase price (£2K inc outboard) will cost about £10K to get her to where I want her to be. I intend to keep her for 5 years or more, meaning £2K a year + mooring, Again, a reasonable cost as far as I am concerned. And, as others have said, I enjoy the project in the winter as much as sailing in the summer and I build confidence in my boat because I know exactly how all the important jobs have been done (most of which I do myself but under the oversight of professionals when appropriate).
MisterBaxter
Well-known member
Thanks again all, lots of good points. I'm familiar with the costs and practicalities of maintenance, having had various yachts (and a narrowboat) in the past. From time to time you see a boat come up that's had a lot of recent work done and money spent, but the owner has decided to sell because of changed circumstances. That's probably the ideal, although of course they won't have done things exactly as you would have done them yourself...
As I say though, I do have cheap tastes. In my twenties and thirties I cruised quite happily around the Bristol Channel in a couple of different boats around the 7m mark with no GPS, no VHS, no inboard engine, no sea toilet, two ring meths cooker, no plumbing, no roller reefing. But big anchors and lots of chain, good sails with well set-up reefing arrangements. I guess I'm looking for something similar but just a couple of metres longer...
What about hull forms, though? How much of a handicap would a deep single keel be? I guess it would rule out a lot of otherwise attractive harbours.
As I say though, I do have cheap tastes. In my twenties and thirties I cruised quite happily around the Bristol Channel in a couple of different boats around the 7m mark with no GPS, no VHS, no inboard engine, no sea toilet, two ring meths cooker, no plumbing, no roller reefing. But big anchors and lots of chain, good sails with well set-up reefing arrangements. I guess I'm looking for something similar but just a couple of metres longer...
What about hull forms, though? How much of a handicap would a deep single keel be? I guess it would rule out a lot of otherwise attractive harbours.
Dellquay13
Well-known member
Other expenses to consider are initial mooring costs and transporting a distant purchase.
Milford Haven moorings cost about £140 for the first year and about £900-£1000 for professionally laid ground tackle (a condition of holding port authority moorings is that you have to remove your tackle when you give the license up, transferring existing tackle to a new license holder hardly ever happens). The winter period will have another expense for storage, boats on moorings all year are very rare in the Haven. It makes annual marina berths seem less expensive, but there are waiting lists at MH marina and Neyland.
In 2020 I paid in the region of £1000 for cranage in and out of the water, on and off transport, mast stepping and raising, and transport of a small bilge keel 24’ on a simple flat bed boat trailer from Cardiff to Milford Haven.
A local purchase would have saved the bulk of that but narrowed the choice on offer, making a broad question of ‘which boat to buy’ a bit superfluous when faced with a choice of just 1 or 2 in budget and at a time when even bathtubs with sails were selling in days. Good local boats under £20k are still selling fast here.
Milford Haven moorings cost about £140 for the first year and about £900-£1000 for professionally laid ground tackle (a condition of holding port authority moorings is that you have to remove your tackle when you give the license up, transferring existing tackle to a new license holder hardly ever happens). The winter period will have another expense for storage, boats on moorings all year are very rare in the Haven. It makes annual marina berths seem less expensive, but there are waiting lists at MH marina and Neyland.
In 2020 I paid in the region of £1000 for cranage in and out of the water, on and off transport, mast stepping and raising, and transport of a small bilge keel 24’ on a simple flat bed boat trailer from Cardiff to Milford Haven.
A local purchase would have saved the bulk of that but narrowed the choice on offer, making a broad question of ‘which boat to buy’ a bit superfluous when faced with a choice of just 1 or 2 in budget and at a time when even bathtubs with sails were selling in days. Good local boats under £20k are still selling fast here.
Last edited:
Frogmogman
Well-known member
How about a First 260 ? Great little boats, there’s a fine looking example with lift keel that would stretch your budget a bit here…
1996 Beneteau First 260 Spirit - Clipper Marine
1996 Beneteau First 260 Spirit - Clipper Marine
mrming
Well-known member
Great little boats, one issue is the swing keel is external to the hull (unlike the Super Seal or Hunter Delta’s lifting plate), so drying out upright needs beaching legs or a quay wall.
The TrapperTS240 is another option, although they are rarer.
Obi
Active member
I bought a yacht (40 ft ketch) that was 30 years old, it had already had the decks and hull stripped treated and repainted, re-rigged, engine and gear box rebuild, hatches replaced and more -too much to mention here. But the point I am making is (as already said) yachts of that age need quite a lot of expensive stuff. I opted for my purchase because so much had already been done, with receipts to evidence it. I knew I had a good starting point to work with, solid but a tad tired looking. After only a few months of work, and a new tek dek, a polish of the hull and re-anti foul, I stood back and could not believe my eyes at how beautiful it looked.
After buying it, I then spent about the same ££ that I paid for the yacht and a huge amount of my time, full time, for two years, plus help from friends and marine services. Everything cost a lot of money.
For you: £15,000 on the purchase, expect to spend similar, maybe a bit less. However, the big cost is the outlay, you can do the rest over time as your funds build up again.
Have you looked at Holman and Pye's UFOs? Might be a bit short on accommodation.
After buying it, I then spent about the same ££ that I paid for the yacht and a huge amount of my time, full time, for two years, plus help from friends and marine services. Everything cost a lot of money.
For you: £15,000 on the purchase, expect to spend similar, maybe a bit less. However, the big cost is the outlay, you can do the rest over time as your funds build up again.
Have you looked at Holman and Pye's UFOs? Might be a bit short on accommodation.
BobnLesley
Well-known member
As skillfully considered ed by Per Brohall:
If there's any wind blowing the stern will go that way, so if you can get out forward after that, fine If however,the wind direction doesn't suit, then the boat's light enough to easily warp round the other way
TwoFish
Active member
Out of interest, could you share some illustrative costs for that sort of work? A 33'-er recently caught my eye, until I realised that the listing hinted engine, sails and standing rigging were all in their twilight years (or dodging the grave), photos suggested similar issues elsewhere and I suspected the owner's attitude to refurbishment and replacement would be reflected in many other potential refurb bills. Am I being over-cautious, or are boats with (near) 40 year-old engines, 20 year old standing rigging and 'age unknown' sails, and the rest, approaching worthlessness?
