What's the fascination with long keels?

[geem]

What happens if you cross a long keel boat with a modern high volume fin and spade boat? Do you end up with a long fin and skeg hung rudder? That's what I have.
The long fin tracks well, the fact that the bottom of the keel is 7ft 2inch down helps. The 6ton of lead in the keel is handy. The skeg helps protect the rudder. She carries large sail area so good in light wind. Reasonable hull volume but no double aft cabin. Skeg on rudder hinders directional control in reverse, but I can live with that. I think I have one foot in each camp!

 

[john_morris_uk]

I'm trying to work out why this thread has suddenly been resurrected?

There's a certain amount (no names) of justifying ones own choice of boat and that's not why I strarted the thread!

One of the points I was making is that it's very easy to take examples of modern fin keeled boats that misbehave and feed some long standing prejudice one has about long keels being much better for long distance blue water sailing. I seem to remember arguing that such a prejudice needed close examining as there are examples of fin keeled yachts that behave themselves in heavy weather just as well as long keeled boats have traditionally been extolled for, yet are faster and easier to handle. What's not to like?

And it's no good coming up with a list of tricks that can be used for close quarters handling of a long keeled boat. The same tricks apply to a well mannered fin keel boat, except you don't need them as often.

Naturally everyone is free to buy whatever boat they want, but the first ocean passages on small boats were done with long keels (because that's what was available) and when one is faced with the bad manners of some modern lightweight fin keelers, the collective conciousness of the yachting world has failed to see the wood for the trees.

 

[Scotty_Tradewind]

I'm trying to work out why this thread has suddenly been resurrected?

There's a certain amount (no names) of justifying ones own choice of boat and that's not why I strarted the thread!

One of the points I was making is that it's very easy to take examples of modern fin keeled boats that misbehave and feed some long standing prejudice one has about long keels being much better for long distance blue water sailing. I seem to remember arguing that such a prejudice needed close examining as there are examples of fin keeled yachts that behave themselves in heavy weather just as well as long keeled boats have traditionally been extolled for, yet are faster and easier to handle. What's not to like?

And it's no good coming up with a list of tricks that can be used for close quarters handling of a long keeled boat. The same tricks apply to a well mannered fin keel boat, except you don't need them as often.

Naturally everyone is free to buy whatever boat they want, but the first ocean passages on small boats were done with long keels (because that's what was available) and when one is faced with the bad manners of some modern lightweight fin keelers, the collective conciousness of the yachting world has failed to see the wood for the trees.

Well summed up...

 

[doug748]

"There's a certain amount (no names) of justifying ones own choice of boat and that's not why I strarted the thread!"



Well Mercy Me.


I think I will start a thread: "What's the fascination with fin keels"

Not to cause a row, you understand. Simply to tease out long standing prejudice.

 

[Poignard]

I'm trying to work out why this thread has suddenly been resurrected?

Perhaps because it is a topic of perpetual interest and a source of endless speculation, like women, politics, religion, food, cars, sport, blue ensigns, anchors et al.

 

[chrisedwards]

I'm sorry but you are quite wrong -from my experience - close quarters handling under sail is easier in a long keel boat - for all the reasons stated previously in this thread. Once your "well mannered" fin keel has stalled - which it will at slow speed - you need lateral resistance to keep control. We will just have to agree to differ on this one but, if ever you go to Newtown Creek - I am happy to demonstrate.

I'm trying to work out why this thread has suddenly been resurrected?

There's a certain amount (no names) of justifying ones own choice of boat and that's not why I strarted the thread!

One of the points I was making is that it's very easy to take examples of modern fin keeled boats that misbehave and feed some long standing prejudice one has about long keels being much better for long distance blue water sailing. I seem to remember arguing that such a prejudice needed close examining as there are examples of fin keeled yachts that behave themselves in heavy weather just as well as long keeled boats have traditionally been extolled for, yet are faster and easier to handle. What's not to like?

And it's no good coming up with a list of tricks that can be used for close quarters handling of a long keeled boat. The same tricks apply to a well mannered fin keel boat, except you don't need them as often.

Naturally everyone is free to buy whatever boat they want, but the first ocean passages on small boats were done with long keels (because that's what was available) and when one is faced with the bad manners of some modern lightweight fin keelers, the collective conciousness of the yachting world has failed to see the wood for the trees.

 

[oldbilbo]

As I understand it, there are two different perceptions of what constitutes a 'long keel' - and certainly I am fascinated by this type....

They look like huge fun and I know one 70 y.o. forumeer who recently spent an hour or so on one. Came back with a grin 'horizon-to-horizon'....

And before someone suggests they're not very seaworthy, let me remind all us armchair admirals that around 70 ultra-enthusiasts are presently charging down the Atlantic in 'em....

 

[Scotty_Tradewind]

I'm not saying one is better than the other, just curious about comments such as Scotty Tradewind's which refer to modern boats being unable to go out in conditions that traditional boats can.

"You are possibly a better seaman/sailor than some who are unable to go out in their fin and spade when a 5-6 is blowing and who don't feel safe or enjoy those conditions. Or you may have one of the very good seagoing fin and spade boats???"

It was implied in the sentences above that the skipper/crew were the ones who were unable to go out, not necessarily the boat with other skippers or crew. Possibly due to the fact that they lack the skill, experience or confidence to do so.

They could be dealing with a far more tender boat e.g. certain Beneteau, Bavaria, Jeanneau, Gibsea, Maxi, J etc. than the long keelers that I have experience of.... Admittedly the youngest of these was an early 2000’s boat, things have possibly changed since then. ??

They were mostly 'good' boats and in some ways better caravans or racers than mine, but more suited to conditions of moderate seas in up to F5/6 and port hopping around warmer climes so that areas like their sugar scoops and decks can be used to full advantage for swimming and sunbathing. Put a long fin keel on them with some weight in the bottom like many Moody's or HR’s have and they are far more able to cope with more demanding conditions, more comfortable and less tender.

Speed is often a trade off with heavier more stable boats, certainly with a heavy displacement long keeler like mine it is.
I've been booked on several club rallies in The Solent that have been either abandoned or port bound due to fairly high winds, that some, possibly more crew than skippers, would not feel comfortable in.
My belief is that if they were used to a more stable platform, then the fear of an unpleasant trip would be far less apparent. Agreed, some don’t like it too breezy or even raining whatever they’re in! 

One of the main things I've experienced from some fin keelers in certain conditions, is slamming and the tendency to try and round up when hit by a gust and of course their general twitchiness and sensitivity. You can also suffer on long trips from more leeway than most longkeelers, yet possibly able to point higher in the first place.

Long fin with a skeg such as the Contessa 32 can be a very different matter as are many others with a not so different undercarriage.

I’m really not proposing that any boat is better overall than any other, just that in my experience differences do exist. You pays yer money………

As for the Transat 6.50 A few years ago one returned through The Solent on its way back to Holland and past me in my Twister as If I were standing still!

 

[john_morris_uk]

I'm sorry but you are quite wrong -from my experience - close quarters handling under sail is easier in a long keel boat - for all the reasons stated previously in this thread. Once your "well mannered" fin keel has stalled - which it will at slow speed - you need lateral resistance to keep control. We will just have to agree to differ on this one but, if ever you go to Newtown Creek - I am happy to demonstrate.

If you read the thread you will see that I have owned and sailed long keeland fin keel boats. Whilst I agree that some modern boats get blown sideways with alarming ease, the inherently large turning circle of a long keeled boat is a fatal flaw in your argument that sailing close quarters is easier with a fin keel. In fact having a long keel is a complete pain in the backside when trying to sail into some very tight spaces. Besides which, the sort of modest fin keeled boat I would suggest is best suited for comfortable motion and ability to heave to etc is likely to have reasonably deep forefoot and doesn't get blown sideways half as easily as you suggest.

I reiterate: I like long keeled boats and many of them sail well with good manners, but I'm not convinced that there's anything inherently good about the characteristics bestowed by a long keel that can't be found and improved on by a well designed yacht with a fin keel.

And it's no good coming up with a list of tricks that can be used for close quarters handling of a long keeled boat. The same tricks apply to a well mannered fin keel boat, except you don't need them as often.

Naturally everyone is free to buy whatever boat they want, but the first ocean passages on small boats were done with long keels (because that's what was available) and when one is faced with the bad manners of some modern lightweight fin keelers, the collective conciousness of the yachting world has failed to see the wood for the trees. It's the "long keel is best for blue water " mantra that needs challenging. This doesn't mean that half of the modern fin keeled boat which are brilliant for marina living are ideal for blue water ocean sailing either!

 

[Robin]

Don't confuse 'stiffness with keel type, 'stiffness' actually results mostly from coss sectional hull shape and typically wineglass shaped long keelers can be very tippy initially, even if ultimately they 'stiffen up' at a larger angle of heel when the keel leverage kicks in. A multihull is he stiffest form at rest until it becomes a monohull by lifting a hull

Things move on in the world of design, otherwise we would all still drive Model T Fords. HOLMAN & PYE designed some delightful boats starting with Twisters etc which IIRC were a newertake on an exising design 26 footer (name forgotten) but they didn't stop then at designing only long keelers, they designed UFOs , Hustlers, Red Admiral and many more that were all excellent fin keelers of their day. I always fancied a UFO34, or even a Hustler 35 and I got to charter a Red Admiral too on a company 'do', very nice too AND it had an aft double cabin. Then again how about he Holman & Pye Oysters , the 37 and centre cockpit caravan 39,

David Sadler had the co26, went on to the Co32, arguably one of the prettiest boats ever , with a cult following these days , but then he moved on to design the Sadler 32 fin & skeg, but then when he went off sailing the world he chose a Dutch built CONTEST 43 fin, nice boat and we nearly bought that one some years later.

I was still living in the UK when this contentious thread first started, have had a year living on a trawler type 47ft Motor yacht in the USA and had a stroke since then after which my brain returned almost to normality so we have gone 'back' to the light side and under sail again with a fin & spade Beneteau Oceanis 36 CC a modern AWB centre cockpit design with a very comfy stern owner's double state room in the stern thank you very much, 'cos we like our home comforts.

so Chill out peeps and enjoy your personal preferences whatever they be, but keep the minds open as there is always a different and equally valid point of view, not correct for all of course but still valid nonetheless. respect other's preferences, we can't all be right or it ewould be no point having a forum like this

 

[robmcg]

Don't confuse 'stiffness with keel type, 'stiffness' actually results mostly from coss sectional hull shape and typically wineglass shaped long keelers can be very tippy initially, even if ultimately they 'stiffen up' at a larger angle of heel when the keel leverage kicks in. A multihull is he stiffest form at rest until it becomes a monohull by lifting a hull

Things move on in the world of design, otherwise we would all still drive Model T Fords. HOLMAN & PYE designed some delightful boats starting with Twisters etc which IIRC were a newertake on an exising design 26 footer (name forgotten) but they didn't stop then at designing only long keelers, they designed UFOs , Hustlers, Red Admiral and many more that were all excellent fin keelers of their day. I always fancied a UFO34, or even a Hustler 35 and I got to charter a Red Admiral too on a company 'do', very nice too AND it had an aft double cabin. Then again how about he Holman & Pye Oysters , the 37 and centre cockpit caravan 39,

David Sadler had the co26, went on to the Co32, arguably one of the prettiest boats ever , with a cult following these days , but then he moved on to design the Sadler 32 fin & skeg, but then when he went off sailing the world he chose a Dutch built CONTEST 43 fin, nice boat and we nearly bought that one some years later.

I was still living in the UK when this contentious thread first started, have had a year living on a trawler type 47ft Motor yacht in the USA and had a stroke since then after which my brain returned almost to normality so we have gone 'back' to the light side and under sail again with a fin & spade Beneteau Oceanis 36 CC a modern AWB centre cockpit design with a very comfy stern owner's double state room in the stern thank you very much, 'cos we like our home comforts.

so Chill out peeps and enjoy your personal preferences whatever they be, but keep the minds open as there is always a different and equally valid point of view, not correct for all of course but still valid nonetheless. respect other's preferences, we can't all be right or it ewould be no point having a forum like this

I agree, things move on with design - but also move on with fashion. Unfortunately, its mainly fashion that drives yacht design these days - after all, there is no point building boats that no one wants because they aren't 'en vogue'. In my experience, peoples choice of boat reflects what they want, can afford, and what they want to do with it. No boat will tick all the boxes all the time - bit like with choosing a partner!!

 

[Seajet]

If you read the thread you will see that I have owned and sailed long keeland fin keel boats. Whilst I agree that some modern boats get blown sideways with alarming ease, the inherently large turning circle of a long keeled boat is a fatal flaw in your argument that sailing close quarters is easier with a fin keel. In fact having a long keel is a complete pain in the backside when trying to sail into some very tight spaces. Besides which, the sort of modest fin keeled boat I would suggest is best suited for comfortable motion and ability to heave to etc is likely to have reasonably deep forefoot and doesn't get blown sideways half as easily as you suggest.

I reiterate: I like long keeled boats and many of them sail well with good manners, but I'm not convinced thI'm trying to work out why this thread has suddenly been resurrected?

There's a certain amount (no names) of justifying ones own choice if boat and that's not why I strarted the thread!

One of the points I was making is that it's very easy to take examples of modern fin keeled boats that misbehave and feed some long standing prejudice one has about long keels being much better for long distance blue water sailing. I seem to remember arguing that such a prejudice needed close examining as there are examples of fin keeled yachts that behave themselves in heavy weather just as well as long keeled boats have traditionally been extolled for, yet are faster and easier to handle. What's not to like?

And it's no good coming up with a list of tricks that can be used for close quarters handling of a long keeled boat. The same tricks apply to a well mannered fin keel boat, except you don't need them as often.

Naturally everyone is free to buy whatever boat they want, but the first ocean passages on small boats were done with long keels (because that's what was available) and when one is faced with the bad manners of some modern lightweight fin keelers, the collective conciousness of the yachting world has failed to see the wood for the trees. at there's anything about having a long keel that can't be equalled or improved with a well designed fin keel boat. It's the "long keel is best for blue water " mantra that needs challenging. This doesn't mean that half of the modern fin keeled boat which are brilliant for marina living are ideal for blue water ocean sailing either!

spot on;

evolution has proved this to be so, even boats with blue water pretensions like Vancouvers, or sensible ones like Victorias, Najads, Hallberg Rasseys, Rustlers etc have fin keels.

Long keels are an exercise in wetted area drag ( nothing to do with water just exposed draggy skin area ) which only existed as they were easier to build with traditional techniques; I've sailed a lot of different Folkboats & other long keelers and while great fun they were disappointing to windward and slow compared to low drag fin leelers.

It's not about being able to turn on a sixpence, though that is handy; it's all about getting the daily miles in when cruising rather than sitting there waiting fot bad weather.

As for the the ' longitudinal stability ' and course keeping, any well trimmed fin keeler is as good if she has decent rudder authority, but the answer is in the word ' trim ', both rudder and sails.

 

[FWB]

It very simple,
Long keels good, fin keels bad. As any fule kno.

 

[Scotty_Tradewind]

. No boat will tick all the boxes all the time - bit like with choosing a partner!!

Speak for yourself....
Mrs S ticks every box! She's the best all round crew I could ever wish for, especially for apre's sail

Make sure everone who knows her tells her I said that, perhaps I can get even more sailing in!



Serious questions.....

Can those who know all about such things tell me what is a 'Blue water cruiser'?

How do they differ from other boats either in the very early days of social sailing or in the 60's to 80's or even now.?

 

[halcyon]

As for the the ' longitudinal stability ' and course keeping, any well trimmed fin keeler is as good if she has decent rudder authority, but the answer is in the word ' trim ', both rudder and sails.

Without reading all posts, long keel owners are happy with there boat, but fin keel owner's spend all their time defending fin keels.

Brian

 

[Scotty_Tradewind]

Without reading all posts, long keel owners are happy with there boat, but fin keel owner's spend all their time defending fin keels.

Brian

Not all the time surely?

 

[Seajet]

halcyon,

I thought it was the reverse, and that's a naughty word to long keelers !

 

[geem]

I am guessing something that would be common to all good 'blue water cruisers' would be up rated gear. Things like over designed rudder shafts, stronger mast, larger rigging, strong goose necks fittings. If you look at the failures of production boats that come to grieve in the Atlantic, these are common failures. If you had a boat built for the job you would expect these issues to be addressed in the design. I am sure there are lots of other items that can be added to the list. Things like larger fuel tanks, water tanks and stowage.

Can those who know all about such things tell me what is a 'Blue water cruiser'?

How do they differ from other boats either in the very early days of social sailing or in the 60's to 80's or even now.?[/QUOTE]

 

[Eyore]

Without reading all posts, long keel owners are happy with there boat, but fin keel owner's spend all their time defending fin keels.

Brian

Yup, that's about the long and short (keel) of it.

 

[robmcg]

Long keels are an exercise in wetted area drag ( nothing to do with water just exposed draggy skin area ) which only existed as they were easier to build with traditional techniques; I've sailed a lot of different Folkboats & other long keelers and while great fun they were disappointing to windward and slow compared to low drag fin keelers.

Unfortunately, I have had the polar opposite experience. With the caveat that the current long keeler we have isn't quite as close winded as other fin keeled cruisers we have sailed, the overall experience of going upwind in the Tradewind has been a pleasure - directionally stable, no slamming and easy on the helm and sail trim. Speed wise, I have not noticed any appreciable decline in speed, certainly not to the extent that we are left behind by other boats. By contrast, the fin keeled Moody 31 we also sail is more close winded (by about 5 degrees or so) but requires more steering concentration and is much more bouncy upwind which is tiring if its a long slog and more pronounced in moderate or rough sea states. Our Trapper 500 was not bad upwind, the large rudder helped but was again a much more bouncy ride. The Westerly we had was OK upwind but made more leeway the more close hauled we were but the ride was pretty comfortable. I think that any point of reference is subjective depending on what you are used to, the conditions and expectations of the skipper. It is quite interesting that as this year was our first year with the Tradewind so we often 'slotted in' behind other types of boat to gauge relevant performance as we had been primed by many to expect slow going. It was a relief to find that performance relative to other boats was generally good. Don't get me wrong, she's no flying machine but certainly not as stodgy as many would expect. She can also carry a ton of stuff and not suffer adversely from the extra weight. Incidentally, we chose her specifically for longer distance work in the not to distant future, not zipping around locally.