What's the fascination with long keels?

doug748 said:
Another view for the long keel fans:

6476572007_4581b78e95_m.jpg
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even prettier.... http://www.flickr.com/photos/25720405@N02/2538903769/in/photostream/

I had a Twister and for their type you cannot get better! imho :)
 
john_morris_uk said:
I think it's a bit of both. I also have met Nigel Calder and he has come to realise that you can have the desirable attributes as required by him for blue water sailing in a well designed and built fin keeled boat.

What I find interesting is how discussions polarise people. For example if for some reason we were changing boats I actually wouldn't stop looking at long keeled boats as a possible replacement. Despite my arguing that they are not the be all and end all of deep water cruising, if the right boat came along, I would still look at it.

What I had hoped to do by starting this discussion, was to try to get people to see that long keels are a bit of an anachronism. They are as much a result of the way boats were forced to be built because of the nature of the materials that were available for hundreds of years as to any hydro dynamic reality. Put it another way, if you have only got wood and traditional construction methods, and you want to build a hull that's not going to fall appart in its first encounter with heavy weather, and yet can still sail to windward, you are going to end up with a long keel. It's the nature of wood and the way the fibres run. Please don't cite Thames barges or Dutch craft with their lee boards as alternatives because neither of those designs were meant for ocean voyaging.
...
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I appreciate that I am quoting a post from 18 months ago for my first post! - but I have to ask where the above statement leaves me with a 1957 wooden boat with a long fin keel? :o
 
Bang on-I am amazed how long this thread has gone on when the previous post and my own views sum it up nicely.

Our long keeler will not sail in light winds-but it has a big engine for those times.

It is good in heavy weather and we rarely have to reef-over 25 knts we put the Jib away and use the staysail.

It has a smooth and steady motion and rarely "slams" in troughs.

It is good alongside and on the hook.

For those advantages we put up with the disadvantage of poor handling in tight places.

As we become more familiar with her she becomes less of a challenge.

Horses for courses.
 
Sort of like arguing about anchors.

There will be those who are adamant one or the other is best and or dreadful

I have sailed different types at different times and enjoy the aesthetic beauty of an old wooden long keel gaff rigged vessel.
I just don’t want to have to maintain one. I can’t afford it. I'd jump at the chance to sail a pilot cutter.

I chose the boat I bought for the type of sailing I intend to partake in. Coastal cruising with my wife occasionally adding my now grown up kids or a few friends.
Its not the best available but it’s the best I could find within my budget. As it happens and an older whit boat with a fin and light weight.
For sheltered waters and planning to sail mostly in good weather just fine.
If I was intending to head of round the world I would probably have looked for something a bit different.

It was a while ago. I have cooked and eaten a 3 course meal on a fin keeled boat underway in a gale.
It might have only been two course if you count a cup of soup as a course.
 
The Question of Seamanship posed in YM was about trying to get a long keeler which wouldn't turn round in the Vannes channel onto a pontoon berth - and asked What would you do? And my immediate answer was - not turn up in a long keeler.
Each to their own, but I think these were developed for building in wood when anything else would not be structurally sound, and hung over into GRP builds by default.

Great for security if doing high latitudes ice bashing, or perhaps long distance blue water where could require to sit out a force 10 at sea. But IMHO seriously sub-optimal for most of us who do coastal cruising and short passages, where the extra performance, manoeuvrability and comfort of a more modern design is better. (NB In my comfort rating I include getting into harbour quicker ahead of bad weather, faster upwind so less time spent that way, more comfortable downwind, and more comfortable when arrived - though the last two more due to associated beam than purely keel)

Great comment about "bullet proof" boats also in YM -below force 5 boat doesn't go, above force 5 we don't go!
 
dunedin said:
The Question of Seamanship posed in YM was about trying to get a long keeler which wouldn't turn round in the Vannes channel onto a pontoon berth - and asked What would you do?
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I don't (can't) claim to be a better seaman than anyone else but I had no difficulty entering or leaving a pontoon berth in Vannes with my Twister (a long-keeler with a reputation for being difficult to handle).

There are many places trickier than Vannes but I haven't read the YM article and that may have been dealing with a much larger boat than mine.

But, in 17 years of ownership, the only damage I ever caused to another boat was no more than was compensated for by an apology and a bottle of good Scotch (reluctantly accepted). This 'achievement' is certainly not due to any skill on my part but results from my being ultra-cautious, and the ability of the Twister to go very slowly without loss of control or being blown sideways.
 
dunedin said:
The Question of Seamanship posed in YM was about trying to get a long keeler which wouldn't turn round in the Vannes channel onto a pontoon berth - and asked What would you do? And my immediate answer was - not turn up in a long keeler.
Each to their own, but I think these were developed for building in wood when anything else would not be structurally sound, and hung over into GRP builds by default.

Great for security if doing high latitudes ice bashing, or perhaps long distance blue water where could require to sit out a force 10 at sea. But IMHO seriously sub-optimal for most of us who do coastal cruising and short passages, where the extra performance, manoeuvrability and comfort of a more modern design is better. (NB In my comfort rating I include getting into harbour quicker ahead of bad weather, faster upwind so less time spent that way, more comfortable downwind, and more comfortable when arrived - though the last two more due to associated beam than purely keel)

Great comment about "bullet proof" boats also in YM -below force 5 boat doesn't go, above force 5 we don't go!
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This Video was taken in a F5 gusting 7 whilst crossing the Irish Sea last year. Terrific fun, felt comfortable and safe, with just one reef in main and about 5 turns taken in on genoa and flying an inner foresail cutter rigged.
http://s725.photobucket.com/user/johnscottorn/media/61gettingalittlewindier.mp4.html

There are a few more videos on my Photo Bucket of less boisterous sailing days in our boat, yet it's a very different pleasure laying in the sun sipping G&T's, .....not really the same satisfaction.

I sympathise with those who cannot push the boundaries due to being restricted by racey or caravan type modern boats... you don't know what your missing.. :)
 
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"The Question of Seamanship posed in YM was about trying to get a long keeler which wouldn't turn round in the Vannes channel onto a pontoon berth - and asked What would you do?"
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I'm frequently surprised and disappointed by boat owners who cannot manoeuvre their boats in awkward places - such as certain marina berths e.g. getting in/out of Victoria Marina/Guernsey - but who insist they can/will only use prop and rudder. I imagine they're equally 'pants' at reversing/parking their cars...

It has always - until recently - been very much part of the skill-set of a seaman ( pro or amateur ) to use warps effectively in such circumstances. Used intelligently and when appropriate, they can readily solve most of such problems. Why is it, I ask myself, that so many yotties would rather risk an expensive and embarrassing 'crunch' when running a line to an adjacent boat or pontoon would secure the manoeuvre in a minute or two.....at no cost to wallet or reputation.

Is it arrogance, or idleness?
 
I don't have any trouble manouvering my Vancouver 27 in crowded marinas, my tactic is to ensure my boats well fendered and then bounce her lightly from boat to boat until we extricate ourselves and are in clear water. As I rarely visit the same marina twice and because an AWB's gelcoat is easily repaired, minor damage to other peoples boats is inconsequential.
 
Wandering Star said:
I don't have any trouble manouvering my Vancouver 27 in crowded marinas, my tactic is to ensure my boats well fendered and then bounce her lightly from boat to boat until we extricate ourselves and are in clear water. As I rarely visit the same marina twice and because an AWB's gelcoat is easily repaired, minor damage to other peoples boats is inconsequential.
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attachment_zpse397bf1a.gif
 
oldbilbo said:
It has always - until recently - been very much part of the skill-set of a seaman ( pro or amateur ) to use warps effectively in such circumstances. Used intelligently and when appropriate, they can readily solve most of such problems. Why is it, I ask myself, that so many yotties would rather risk an expensive and embarrassing 'crunch' when running a line to an adjacent boat or pontoon would secure the manoeuvre in a minute or two.....at no cost to wallet or reputation.

Is it arrogance, or idleness?
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+1

I have frequently berthed stern to in Port Leucate in a F6 cross wind. In those conditions the only other boat I have seen going in or out is another long keeled boat - in his case a 60ft+ schooner. He does short trips up and down the coast with paying passengers in any conditions short of a full hurricane.

In a F6 cross wind I to cannot turn around in the fairway. But with a warp strategily attached and a crew man to handle it we have no problem parking without hitting anything.

I have chickened out parking in my berth at times. The last time was when coming into port under engine at 3/4 throttle I was ferry gliding along at 45 degrees to my desired track (and healing at 15 degrees with 13tons of lead in my keel!) I then parked on a convenient hammer head and headed to my berth the next morning when the wind had died down to F6 or so.
 
oldbilbo said:
I'm frequently surprised and disappointed by boat owners who cannot manoeuvre their boats in awkward places - such as certain marina berths e.g. getting in/out of Victoria Marina/Guernsey - but who insist they can/will only use prop and rudder. I imagine they're equally 'pants' at reversing/parking their cars...

It has always - until recently - been very much part of the skill-set of a seaman ( pro or amateur ) to use warps effectively in such circumstances. Used intelligently and when appropriate, they can readily solve most of such problems. Why is it, I ask myself, that so many yotties would rather risk an expensive and embarrassing 'crunch' when running a line to an adjacent boat or pontoon would secure the manoeuvre in a minute or two.....at no cost to wallet or reputation.

Is it arrogance, or idleness?
Click to expand...

That's why you have bow and stern thrusters
 
oldbilbo said:
I'm frequently surprised and disappointed by boat owners who cannot manoeuvre their boats in awkward places - such as certain marina berths e.g. getting in/out of Victoria Marina/Guernsey - but who insist they can/will only use prop and rudder. I imagine they're equally 'pants' at reversing/parking their cars...

It has always - until recently - been very much part of the skill-set of a seaman ( pro or amateur ) to use warps effectively in such circumstances.......
Click to expand...


I towed a floating line out of my berth, after one such departure from Victoria Marina. Just untill I could pick it up, being singlehanded.

It was seen, and there was such a racket of shouting and hollering, the cry was taken up from all points - lineinthewater - gargoyles appeared out of companionways, folk repeated the cry from the embankment, a woman screamed Oh My God, I swear it. It was not friendly or helpful it sounded oddly vicious.

You had to be there, it was very creepy. I am not sure what the moral is.
 
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