What's the fascination with long keels?

My long keeler is very slow going up wind in F8. It is comfy, but there is too much windage to enable much progress to be made. VMG is down to about 2 knots. I would much prefer to be going in a different direction - but I always end up with an F8 on the nose and 30 miles to make to windward to get back to work the next day.

A fin keeled boat like this one is much faster to windward in the same conditions:-

View attachment 37156View attachment 37156

No idea how a Bavaria or Bendy boat does in the same conditions. I never see them out in those conditions.
 
I think that the tendency for modern boats to slam upwind is rather overstated. At least in most normal conditions. I've thrashed an AWB upwind hard enough to lift the large cooker off its gimbals, and don't recall slamming being an issue even then.
 
Simondjuk said:
I think that the tendency for modern boats to slam upwind is rather overstated. At least in most normal conditions. I've thrashed an AWB upwind hard enough to lift the large cooker off its gimbals, and don't recall slamming being an issue even then.
Click to expand...

If the cooker came off its gimbals, believe me the slamming is an issue!:o
 
robmcg said:
If the cooker came off its gimbals, believe me the slamming is an issue!:o
Click to expand...
Er, no. The cooker lifts at the top. The slam happens at the bottom... only it didn't, wave after wave.

Save from being able to fly, when a boat sails off the top of a backless wave, it will drop, long keel or not. It's what happens when it regains the water which leads to slamming or not, and in my experience its simply not the big issue that it's made out to be.
 
Simondjuk said:
Er, no. The cooker lifts at the top. The slam happens at the bottom... only it didn't, wave after wave.

Save from being able to fly, when a boat sails off the top of a backless wave, it will drop, long keel or not. It's what happens when it regains the water which leads to slamming or not, and in my experience its simply not the big issue that it's made out to be.
Click to expand...

Well I haven't had the cooker come off the gimbals. Did the rest of your interior also start to disintegrate?
 
Yes, it all fell apart. A boat not slamming causes that to happen, don't you know? :)

The cooker is relevant only in illustrating the conditions in which this boat wasn't slamming. Had they been clipped properly, the cooker would have stayed put even in such circumstances, as it had presumably done in all the more usual conditions the boat had encountered since new.
 
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But if your cooker lifts out of the gimbals at the top, then it must have jumped off the gimbals as the boat came back down into the water, perhaps as a result of the flatter forward section of your hull slamming like the palm of your hand on the surface of the water. If you had a deeper forefoot, it would have helped displace the water more efficiently and potentially your cooker would have stayed on its gimbals, hence the reason I said that given your description, slamming appeared to be an issue, certainly for your cooker if not yourself.
 
Simondjuk said:
I'd venture that boat for boat, AWBs, and in particular Bens, Jens and Bavs, cover a greater number of miles in a wider range of conditions than most other types.
Click to expand...

Venture away.

First Mate and I are no hero's, but we have a boat that is comfortable-compared to our previous fin/spade and slightly larger fin/skeg boats in F6 or F7.
We will venture out in these conditions if we have a good forecast and are not beating into the teeth of it.
Both our previous boats-much flatter hull profile and both were MUCH lighter and slammed when falling into troughs.
Both also had a greater tendency to round up in gusts-the fin/spade to the extent of being unmanagable even with the main slipped.
As this was in our early "Learning Curve" days please dont read too much into this-it could easily have been operator error!
Exiting Chichester in a blow we have been down to less than 1knt.
I hate to think if our Hunter 27 OOD or the Gibsea 96 that followed would have coped-we would have stayed in!
Managing heavy weather is not for all-reading this extended thread shows this.
However, we have our heavy long keeler with cutter rig which is undoubtedly better than we are.
When we exited Chichester as mentioned earlier the only other boat we saw was a training boat from the JSASTC at HMS Hornet, with a strong crew.
Also a long keeler I believe-Victoria 34.
In the right conditions we do challenge ourselves so we gain the experience to cope with adverse weather-after all you can get caught short anytime.
As a previous poster said-if the cooker is off the gimballs you are slamming!
The cooker has never shifted on our boat-although the oven door came open once and shot the oven pans on the sole.
First mate and I are retired and our early sixties are behind us.
The boat we have chosen will not go under sail in light winds. It makes rather more leeway than we would like. It is not particularly close winded-anything but.
On the other hand we are retired, time is no longer a prime consideration and we are better off financially now the pension income has kicked in.
This means we can stay untill we are happy to leave. A slower boat in certain conditions is not a problem.
A Bavaria 30 Cruiser owner in our club sailed with us once and it piped up a bit.
He remarked after how quiet our boat was below compared to his-he said his "Boomed"iin the sort of short heavy Solent chop we had that day.

All the above is subjective.

Bottom line is our boat suits us FOR THE SAILING WE DO-that is the important bit.

It is of complete indiference if it would not suit others.
 
I presume that as the boat fell off the back of a wave, the cooker had a little more inertia than the boat and kept travelling upwards for a moment longer than the boat. This was allowed by the clips on the gimbals not being engaged. The plates, like most, we're quite thin and maybe an inch or so wide. As the cooker ran out of inertia, it came back down and the lugs missed the very small area in which they rest. All this happens before the boat finishes its downward motion, so the slam, or lack of, is irrelevant.

Think hump backed bridge.

Incidentally, it wasn't my boat. My cooker has proper gimbals which I'd wager will keep it in place in a knockdown.
 
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robmcg said:
It is quite interesting that as this year was our first year with the Tradewind so we often 'slotted in' behind other types of boat to gauge relevant performance as we had been primed by many to expect slow going. It was a relief to find that performance relative to other boats was generally good. Don't get me wrong, she's no flying machine but certainly not as stodgy as many would expect. She can also carry a ton of stuff and not suffer adversely from the extra weight. Incidentally, we chose her specifically for longer distance work in the not to distant future, not zipping around locally.
Click to expand...

:)
http://s725.photobucket.com/user/jo...terCampeltown_zps81dce487.mp4.html?sort=3&o=0
 
Simondjuk said:
I think that the tendency for modern boats to slam upwind is rather overstated. At least in most normal conditions. I've thrashed an AWB upwind hard enough to lift the large cooker off its gimbals, and don't recall slamming being an issue even then.
Click to expand...

Thrash a Twister upwind and one wouldn't even knock the ash off one's cigar. :D
 
Simondjuk said:
I presume that as the boat fell off the back of a wave, the cooker had a little more inertia than the boat and kept travelling upwards for a moment longer than the boat. This was allowed by the clips on the gimbals not being engaged. The plates, like most, we're quite thin and maybe an inch or so wide. As the cooker ran out of inertia, it came back down and the lugs missed the very small area in which they rest. All this happens before the boat finishes its downward motion, so the slam, or lack of, is irrelevant.

Think hump backed bridge.
Click to expand...

Unlikely as the cooker would have to have a serious amount of inertial travel and have to overcome the friction of the gimbal brackets. More likely it bounced out of the gimbals as the bow struck the water in a (slamming) motion. Your boat will be more prone to this due to its flatter forward underwater sections. Think hand slapping water.
 
rotrax said:
Venture away.

First Mate and I are no hero's, but we have a boat that is comfortable-compared to our previous fin/spade and slightly larger fin/skeg boats in F6 or F7.
We will venture out in these conditions if we have a good forecast and are not beating into the teeth of it.
Both our previous boats-much flatter hull profile and both were MUCH lighter and slammed when falling into troughs.
Both also had a greater tendency to round up in gusts-the fin/spade to the extent of being unmanagable even with the main slipped.
As this was in our early "Learning Curve" days please dont read too much into this-it could easily have been operator error!
Exiting Chichester in a blow we have been down to less than 1knt.
I hate to think if our Hunter 27 OOD or the Gibsea 96 that followed would have coped-we would have stayed in!
Managing heavy weather is not for all-reading this extended thread shows this.
However, we have our heavy long keeler with cutter rig which is undoubtedly better than we are.
When we exited Chichester as mentioned earlier the only other boat we saw was a training boat from the JSASTC at HMS Hornet, with a strong crew.
Also a long keeler I believe-Victoria 34.
In the right conditions we do challenge ourselves so we gain the experience to cope with adverse weather-after all you can get caught short anytime.
As a previous poster said-if the cooker is off the gimballs you are slamming!
The cooker has never shifted on our boat-although the oven door came open once and shot the oven pans on the sole.
First mate and I are retired and our early sixties are behind us.
The boat we have chosen will not go under sail in light winds. It makes rather more leeway than we would like. It is not particularly close winded-anything but.
On the other hand we are retired, time is no longer a prime consideration and we are better off financially now the pension income has kicked in.
This means we can stay untill we are happy to leave. A slower boat in certain conditions is not a problem.
A Bavaria 30 Cruiser owner in our club sailed with us once and it piped up a bit.
He remarked after how quiet our boat was below compared to his-he said his "Boomed"iin the sort of short heavy Solent chop we had that day.

All the above is subjective.

Bottom line is our boat suits us FOR THE SAILING WE DO-that is the important bit.

It is of complete indiference if it would not suit others.
Click to expand...

Absolutely, and I agree with all you say, except the gimbal/slamming thing which I've already explained. However, it's not really relevant to the point I was making in response to Michael's post.
 
robmcg said:
Unlikely as the cooker would have to have a serious amount of inertial travel and have to overcome the friction of the gimbal brackets. More likely it bounced out of the gimbals as the bow struck the water in a (slamming) motion. Your boat will be more prone to this due to its flatter forward underwater sections. Think hand slapping water.
Click to expand...

I spent a while below putting the cooker back on. There was no slamming. There was no friction in the brackets. The cooker just sat in them, lugs in cups. Like I said, think the sense of weightlessness over a hump backed bridge.
 
michaelchapman said:
My long keeler is very slow going up wind in F8. It is comfy, but there is too much windage to enable much progress to be made. VMG is down to about 2 knots. I would much prefer to be going in a different direction - but I always end up with an F8 on the nose and 30 miles to make to windward to get back to work the next day.

A fin keeled boat like this one is much faster to windward in the same conditions:-

View attachment 37156View attachment 37156

No idea how a Bavaria or Bendy boat does in the same conditions. I never see them out in those conditions.
Click to expand...

Just for you some footage here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x5sO8hMW-9A
and here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZzZ4UG-Q7ig
 
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