What's the fascination with long keels?

[Blueboatman]

I would hazard a guess that 80% of ybw forum readers are sailing 5-25yr old fin and Skeg 'awb's so a long keeler is viewed with curiosity, to say the least?

 

[Tranona]

I would hazard a guess that 80% of ybw forum readers are sailing 5-25yr old fin and Skeg 'awb's so a long keeler is viewed with curiosity, to say the least?

Ah! but if you look at the age profile of a high proportion of today's boat owners you will likely find that many have owned long keelers in the past ('cos there were many more around comparatively) so the curiosity is probably about why should anyone still want to own one when there are alternative styles available!

 

[Wandering Star]

Just received Aprils Yachting Monthly and there's an article on the merits and otherwise of different keel types. Most of the arguments for and against have been chewed over in this thread. My own view is the demise of the long keel is more down to design changes made to accomodate production line type of manufacture than it is to improved seakeeping abilities, and 30 years of yachtsmen have grown up knowing no different because production line building has has dramatically decreased cost of ownership - a good thing and perfectly satisfactory for 95% of yachtsmen.

I don't have any problems with modern keel shapes for weekend type sailing where it's possible to pick the weather or head for port, but the OP was about long keels versus fin keels in respect of passagemaking, bluewater cruising if I recall correctly, which is a different ballgame when you may (or may not) hit seriously bad weather on passage with correspondingly turbulent sea states simply because by definition, passage times span periods too far ahead to obtain weather forecasts.

Unless you're fairly wealthy, there's a dearth of modern build affordable long keelers to choose from (I actually don't think there are any!) because of the high build cost. It's nothing to do with fin and skeg or whatever being a better choice, in my opinion the BenJenBavs which go bluewater cruising are selected for their modern bright interiors and shiney topsides instead of (for the same money) dark interiors and aged topsides of an affordable long keeler.

It's all down to the individual sailor (and his wife!) as to what their priorities are, a modern build fin keeler or an older build long keeler. I've owned/sailed all sorts and for me, a heavy longish keeler is unquestionably more comfortable, more forgiving, easier to self steer and generally imparts a far greater feeling of security in a blow than does a fin keeler, those proprties are more important to me than having pristine topsides and a bright interior but for others its different.

Having watched a fleet of BT keelboats match racing during the Southampton Boatshow a few years back, I couldn't pssibly agree long keelers are more manouverable in close quarters situations than fin keelers, but I'm not sure I understood the points being made in that particular argument.

Cheers, Brian.

 

[KellysEye]

>dark interiors and aged topsides of an affordable long keeler.

That seems to be a generally held view by people who haven't owned a long keeler. Ours has lots of hatches along the sides of the coach roof, on the fordeck, coach roof and aft cabin, it's very light inside. And why aged topsides, ours have been repainted when needed, if you use Awlgrip it's about 12 to 14 years.

 

[LouisBrowne]

Lots of good points there, though I think that the fact that there are not many long keeled boats available is probably less to do with cost than it is to do with factors like manoeuvring around marinas.

If I were choosing a yacht for crossing oceans I think it would probably be a fin keeled yacht because I think a fin keeler would be a bit faster and there would be wider choice. However it would not be a foregone conclusion because, as long as the boat is fast enough, the most important consideration would be comfort.

But I would go for a rather beamy and moderate to heavy fin keeler for comfort in terms of motion, noise levels etc. I know that Bavarias etc can make ocean voyages but that's just not what they are designed for.

 

[KellysEye]

>there are not many long keeled boats available is probably less to do with cost than it is to do with factors like manoeuvring around marinas.

It's not difficult if you learn how to manoeuvre around marinas. Some examples of the tricks of the trade are: If you use very short blips on the throttle going astern the boat will go straght. If you want to back out straight from a berth keep a spring on and run the engine at low revs for a few minutes, release the spring and the boat will go straight. If you are in a marina with less than normal space between the pontoons choose a berth that the stern will turn to and use the propwalk to back in, otherwise go bow to and use the spring trick on the way out. Also in a small marina if backing out into a narrow channel you can hold the boat straight and use the propwalk to turn into the channel btween the pontoons before heading out - obviously make sure that the channel of the berth you choose does not end in a dead end when you back out. If we don't know a marina we call ahead and explain what we want and why and they are always very helpul. It's very easy when you know how.

My suggestion to anyone buying a long keeler is get the previous owner to you show how to do those things and practice with the owner aboard.

 

[john_morris_uk]

>there are not many long keeled boats available is probably less to do with cost than it is to do with factors like manoeuvring around marinas.

It's not difficult if you learn how to manoeuvre around marinas. Some examples of the tricks of the trade are: If you use very short blips on the throttle going astern the boat will go straght. If you want to back out straight from a berth keep a spring on and run the engine at low revs for a few minutes, release the spring and the boat will go straight. If you are in a marina with less than normal space between the pontoons choose a berth that the stern will turn to and use the propwalk to back in, otherwise go bow to and use the spring trick on the way out. Also in a small marina if backing out into a narrow channel you can hold the boat straight and use the propwalk to turn into the channel btween the pontoons before heading out - obviously make sure that the channel of the berth you choose does not end in a dead end when you back out. If we don't know a marina we call ahead and explain what we want and why and they are always very helpul. It's very easy when you know how.

My suggestion to anyone buying a long keeler is get the previous owner to you show how to do those things and practice with the owner aboard.

Please note from my original post that I have owned and sailed long keeled boats, so all the tricks you outline (and more) are perhaps known to me and have been used many times.

What I am completely flabbergasted by is the reluctance of some owners to acknowledge that their particular craft might not be perfect in every respect. The very fact that you have to call ahead, and have a bag of tricks up your sleeve for maneuvering in tight spots tells me that this is an aspect of 'long keeled ownership' that you put up with because there are other 'advantages' that you would rather enjoy under other circumstances. Perhaps my thread should have been titled, "Love is Blind"?

In all of the arguments, I am well aware of, and have enjoyed some of the attributes of long keels on boats. However ignoring the lightweight fin keeled mass produced boats that are available from some of the major manufacturers, I have yet to hear anyone produce a realistic argument in favour of long keel over a moderate or heavy displacement Malo or Swann etc etc. Even going to cheap and second hand, I will come back to boats like the Excalibar or Nicholsons etc that have moderate fin keels, and sail and maneuver much much BETTER than some of the long keeled classics. They heave to, track well, have a seakindly motion, but actually often sail faster and point higher than some of the traditional shapes. I have contentiously suggested that the long keel is an anachronism which came from the materials and construction methods available, rather than any serious hydrodynamic analysis and design, but no-one seems willing to debate that point. We just get stuck with people saying yes well... I still love my long keel.

 

[Twister_Ken]

Please note from my original post that I have owned and sailed long keeled boats, so all the tricks you outline (and more) are perhaps known to me and have been used many times.

What I am completely flabbergasted by is the reluctance of some owners to acknowledge that their particular craft might not be perfect in every respect. The very fact that you have to call ahead, and have a bag of tricks up your sleeve for maneuvering in tight spots tells me that this is an aspect of 'long keeled ownership' that you put up with because there are other 'advantages' that you would rather enjoy under other circumstances. Perhaps my thread should have been titled, "Love is Blind"?

In all of the arguments, I am well aware of, and have enjoyed some of the attributes of long keels on boats. However ignoring the lightweight fin keeled mass produced boats that are available from some of the major manufacturers, I have yet to hear anyone produce a realistic argument in favour of long keel over a moderate or heavy displacement Malo or Swann etc etc. Even going to cheap and second hand, I will come back to boats like the Excalibar or Nicholsons etc that have moderate fin keels, and sail and maneuver much much BETTER than some of the long keeled classics. They heave to, track well, have a seakindly motion, but actually often sail faster and point higher than some of the traditional shapes. I have contentiously suggested that the long keel is an anachronism which came from the materials and construction methods available, rather than any serious hydrodynamic analysis and design, but no-one seems willing to debate that point. We just get stuck with people saying yes well... I still love my long keel.

Next you'll be telling me that Madame should be taller!

 

[Poignard]

The very fact that you have to call ahead, and have a bag of tricks up your sleeve for maneuvering in tight spots tells me that this is an aspect of 'long keeled ownership' that you put up with because there are other 'advantages' that you would rather enjoy under other circumstances.

Well I have never had to call anyone for help, or even contemplated it. If I owned a boat like that I would get rid of it PDQ!

At the risk of making myself a hostage to fortune, the only particular difficulty I ever have with manouvering a Twister is when reversing out of a marina berth with a cross wind that is tending to turn the bow towards the 'dead-end'. But this is no more than an inconvenience, easily overcome, and greatly outweighed by the other advantages of the boat.

 

[Scotty_Tradewind]

If I were choosing a yacht for crossing oceans I think it would probably be a fin keeled yacht because I think a fin keeler would be a bit faster and there would be wider choice. However it would not be a foregone conclusion because, as long as the boat is fast enough, the most important consideration would be comfort.

But I would go for a rather beamy and moderate to heavy fin keeler for comfort in terms of motion, noise levels etc. I know that Bavarias etc can make ocean voyages but that's just not what they are designed for.

Safety I think most important then comfort for crossing oceans.

I've slammed my way across the Irish sea in an awb, broached in a slight gust in the Ionian in an awb, been suddenly turned around 90degrees by the wind in a marina in an awb, I've found terrific comfort and pleasure in Turkey being able to swim off the sugar scoop in an awb, delighted in the modern layout and ease of holidaying in the med' in an awb, been overjoyed at the speed of a J109 round the cans, frustrated by the slowness yet happy with the comfort, reliability and safety of my long keelers.

Cost effective safe sailing around the World on my budget ..... a long keeler every time.
Safe sailing around the World on an open budget..... a lot of superb boats to choose from but Jimmy Cornell has tried a few and got about the globe some and seems to like those aluminium things with a drop keel for some reason He told me recently that he enjoyed going side on to a storm so that he could lift the keel and surf sideways down the big waves???

It's horses for courses mixed with the cash available.

 

[KellysEye]

>a bag of tricks up your sleeve for maneuvering in tight spots tells me that this is an aspect of 'long keeled ownership' that you put up with because there are other 'advantages' that you would rather enjoy under other circumstances.

I just view the tricks it as another aspect of seamanship, there is nothing to put up with. The reason we call ahead if we don't know the marina is simply to ensure there is a berth free and where it is. From the radio traffic near marinas that seems to be normal visitor practice.

>He told me recently that he enjoyed going side on to a storm so that he could lift the keel and surf sideways down the big waves???

I wonder if he was joking, side on surfing is likely to roll the boat, most rolls are caused by a broach in big seas. Also we avoid sailing beam on to seas which are the same height or a little more than our beam.

 

[flaming]

I wonder if he was joking, side on surfing is likely to roll the boat, most rolls are caused by a broach in big seas. Also we avoid sailing beam on to seas which are the same height or a little more than our beam.

There is a school of thought that it's the keel that trips the boat up and rolls it, and so with a raised keel the boat will just slide sideways.

It would take a braver man than me to try that in a survival storm though.

 

[westernman]

There is a school of thought that it's the keel that trips the boat up and rolls it, and so with a raised keel the boat will just slide sideways.

It would take a braver man than me to try that in a survival storm though.

When gybing an Enterprise in strong winds it was normal practice to completely raise the centerboard so it would slide sideways rather than trip over the centerboard and capsize.

 

[Blueboatman]

Nitpicking aside this must be one of the better threads for eliciting information. Well done to the OP for that and 40pages of mostly useful experiences added.

I am intrigued by at least one of Kellyseyes 'tricks' and can't wait to try it( on any boat actually)..getting the prop flow going before releasing and backing out off of a single spring line.

Iirc it was TwisterKen who once mused that if you give a long keeler full bore astern, eventually it will go in a reverse straight line. This too I have yet to try....with reliable success lol. Give me more power scotty

Btw I elected for a 10hp o/board on my last boat and with the throttle arm in one hand and the tiller extension in the other, that boat could be tickled sideways into a crosswind and every other direction one might wish to go. The inboard version was a bloody horror @close quarters in any sort of wind..heyho it's all a bloomin compromise..

 

[john_morris_uk]

Nitpicking aside this must be one of the better threads for eliciting information. Well done to the OP for that and 40pages of mostly useful experiences added.

I am intrigued by at least one of Kellyseyes 'tricks' and can't wait to try it( on any boat actually)..getting the prop flow going before releasing and backing out off of a single spring line.

Iirc it was TwisterKen who once mused that if you give a long keeler full bore astern, eventually it will go in a reverse straight line. This too I have yet to try....with reliable success lol. Give me more power scotty

Btw I elected for a 10hp o/board on my last boat and with the throttle arm in one hand and the tiller extension in the other, that boat could be tickled sideways into a crosswind and every other direction one might wish to go. The inboard version was a bloody horror @close quarters in any sort of wind..heyho it's all a bloomin compromise..

I don't want to drift my own thread, but you have reminded me of a long keeled boat that I used to sail in which their was a pronounced prop walk when put in astern - the only problem was that which way it went wasn't reliable! It seemed to depend on which side of the keel the flow from the propeller started to go. I discovered that although nine times out of ten it would kick to starboard (the 'correct way' theoretically according to the prop rotation) if you gave a nudge to port and then went astern you could get it to kick to port as well. It meant that you could perform all sorts of tricks when berthing the thing. It didn't help that it was between 40 and 50 foot long and weighed over twenty tonnes. The joys of long keels...

I had another friend whose boat featured heavily in editions of PBO many years ago. He had completely rebuilt his classic double ender with long keel. The prop came out of the quarter in the old fashioned way and there was NO WAY you could EVER get the thing to turn backwards against the prop... Astern was always hard to starboard or slightly to starboard.

 

[Poignard]

Iirc it was TwisterKen who once mused that if you give a long keeler full bore astern, eventually it will go in a reverse straight line. This too I have yet to try....with reliable success lol. Give me more power scotty

I have tried this in my Twister and it is true; to a certain extent.

Reverse at over 3 knots into a strong wind and she will go in a more-or-less straight line.

However, I have yet to discover any practical application for this technique.

 

[Blueboatman]

Quote "However, I have yet to discover any practical application for this technique." quote.

Me neither. But one day maybe.....?

Actually in strong winds the stern weathercocks quite nicely when reversing....

Out of sheer curiosity I suspect that a big stout sweep/oar tethered and 'trailed' out aft would probably be enough leverage to induce perfect manners. (poor mans bowthruster?)

Like The OP, I have done my time on quarter propped wooden long keelers, but harbours were more spacious!

 

[LONG_KEELER]

Out of sheer curiosity I suspect that a big stout sweep/oar tethered and 'trailed' out aft would probably be enough leverage to induce perfect manners. (poor mans bowthruster?)

I can confirm that works very well. I had a 12' oar based on reading one of Maurice Griffiths suggestions for back up power. I could only manage about half a knot in a flat calm.

My second thought was to use it as a back up rudder. That worked poorly too. I lashed it to the backstay and tried steering under power. By just using dabs either way in worked beautifully. I could even steer in between moorings.

Going astern in a marina you could more or less steer the whole way out. The downside was tripping over the thing on deck. One winter ashore I never saw it again. I still have thoughts on a telescopic job.

 

[westernman]

Iirc it was TwisterKen who once mused that if you give a long keeler full bore astern, eventually it will go in a reverse straight line. This too I have yet to try....with reliable success lol. Give me more power scotty

I can confirm that that works in my pilot cutter. It takes about 500m to get up enough momentum before she will go straight. And she is actually steerable once we have got her going straight (well just a bit).

I have not yet come across an occasion where this is useful

 

[GlennG]

Actually in strong winds the stern weathercocks quite nicely when reversing....

I reversed out of my berth one day with a fair old wind on the bow. She is normally very reliable with her kick to port which clears the berth in the right direction -- 9 times out of 10 it looks great.

However in this day she decided to do a complete 180 more-or-less in her own length. I ended up reversing her back into her own berth facing the opposite way, I then nonchalantly drove her out forwards. One of those manoeuvres you could never repeat in a month of Sundays.

With a long keel: be prepared for anything!