What's the fascination with long keels?

[Poignard]

So far, the most reliable technique I have found for dealing with bow windage is to use my 25lb lead 'drudging' weight. Just let it go over the bow when the boat is in midstream, wait a few moments while she settles head to wind and then motor slowly ahead, recovering the weight as you go.

Whilst waiting for the boat to settle head to wind, there is time to light the pipe that John Morris probably assumes us old fuddy-duddy long-keelers smoke.

 

[BrianH]

There is a school of thought that it's the keel that trips the boat up and rolls it, and so with a raised keel the boat will just slide sideways.

I can vouch for that. During a race from Whitby once, going north in the bay towards Sandsend, for those that know the area, I went well inshore to get out from the strong, south-going tide, which I thought I could do with my centre-plate up in the beam wind and which the usual bunch of competitors couldn't safely do with their larger, fin-keel yachts.

All went well despite a heavy swell that was taking the light wind out of the sails sometimes until we came to Upgang Rock, a submarine uprising over which we would have plenty of clearance. However, out of nowhere the swell broke (with no previous indication of breakers there) and the boat started surfing sideways at an alarming rate. Eventually, in shallower water the wave subsided and, with still enough water to sail off, I cleared the shore, quite shaken.

If I had had the plate down, or a keel boat, I think I would have been rolled with the height of the wave. As it was, I obtained the title of 'Beachcomber' in the clubhouse later.

 

[Bosun Higgs]

So far, the most reliable technique I have found for dealing with bow windage is to use my 25lb lead 'drudging' weight. Just let it go over the bow when the boat is in midstream, wait a few moments while she settles head to wind and then motor slowly ahead, recovering the weight as you go.

Bet you have "baggywrinkle" on your rigging and maybe thole pins and hemp rope and stockholm tar on your gansey and walk with a sailors roll as you head for the Shipwrights Arms. . Beard?

 

[Blueboatman]

So much to learn. ( tempting to make a snide comment about boat handling learning or spending ££ on paper tickets) but.

Parsifals drudging idea I have never tried though v tempting to deploy the anchor from the cockpit if one is so set up, enough to bump vertically along the seabed and assist in backing out. I guess you would have to know that the ground is flattish and not obstructed. One more trick to try.

MichaelChapman I raced on a smack the Ellen which had one diesel and two saildrives hydraulically driven- impressive, especially to the unsuspecting in close quarters.

LongKeeler the idea of stowing the sweep handily along the backstay-perfect. That would be well supported to withstand the reverse steering forces. This I have to try. Ironically one assumes it is better to raise a self steering paddle for closequarters manoeuvrability but hmmm..some swing out and then align fore and aft but if the turning moment could be kept active, that might be enough in itself.
March is perfect marina parking practise time midweek, lots of empty pontoons and no traffic or bored watching AWB observers?

 

[Poignard]

Bet you have "baggywrinkle" on your rigging and maybe thole pins and hemp rope and stockholm tar on your gansey and walk with a sailors roll as you head for the Shipwrights Arms. . Beard?

All of that except that I wouldn't be seen dead in a beard! I cannot imagine why on earth anyone would countenance one.

 

[Robin]

Well after all the arguments about the benefits of long keels on here the pro camp have probably scuppered more long keel hopefuls by their tales of handling tricks and treats than any logical case for better performance ever could.

 

[Poignard]

Parsifals drudging idea I have never tried though v tempting to deploy the anchor from the cockpit if one is so set up, enough to bump vertically along the seabed and assist in backing out. I guess you would have to know that the ground is flattish and not obstructed. One more trick to try.

The idea is not to help you back out, it is to hold the bow facing the wind temporarily so you can then motor out ahead.

In practice I lead the line from the cockpit via a snatch-block to a bow fairlead, then back aft 'outside all', and prop the weight on the toerail by the cockpit where it can be easily pushed off into the water. Recovery can then be done from the cockpit and the weight lifted on board when in open water.

There is little chance of snagging the weight on anything because it is only a 2" square section of lead window sash. That's why I use a weight and not an anchor, although an anchor could be used if the line was attached to its crown.

As John Goode, from whom I got the idea, points out, marinas are not dredged any deeper than the minimum necessary because dredging costs money so you are not having to haul in long lines

 

[Scotty_Tradewind]

In my Twister I tried the technique of pointing her tail into the wind and yes, into a reasonable breeze or strong wind it does work.

My Tradewind, an even heavier displacement long keeler, seems to do the same and going astern some distance it's dead simple to steer, I simply give a blast on the bow thruster!

 

[Blueboatman]

Re MoboRobin of Poole). Just wait till you get a norther blowing through some overcrowded Banamas anchorage and those tophampered mobos start dancing and dragging...
'Welcome to my world' for grown up boat handling! Of course the 'Bale-out-to-sea' option that we long keelers love, may not look so attractive then.
(Tongue in cheek).
Don't know about you but I am taking on board some genuine tips that may be useful to any boat owner of whatever type, having like you owned more than one boat type.

 

[Robin]

Re MoboRobin of Poole). Just wait till you get a norther blowing through some overcrowded Banamas anchorage and those tophampered mobos start dancing and dragging...
'Welcome to my world' for grown up boat handling! Of course the 'Bale-out-to-sea' option that we long keelers love, may not look so attractive then.
(Tongue in cheek).
Don't know about you but I am taking on board some genuine tips that may be useful to any boat owner of whatever type, having like you owned more than one boat type.

I don't want to kick off a new anchor thread but we are planning on a) upping our 66lb Claw to a 88lb Delta b) picking less crowded anchorages where possible (I heard the septics anchor like the French) c) Getting out of dodge quick if needed since we can wind up to 17kts if needed!

 

[Blueboatman]

That is the right answer Sir! All of it

 

[Tranona]

Just idly doing a few sums and thinking about the spare capacity in the AWB factories. Manufacturing costs are broadly proportional to the weight of materials. One of the oft made comments about the Rustler 36 style of boat is that it is expensive to manufacture with its deep hull, encapsulated ballast etc. Not sure this is the case. A Southerly 32 is more like an AWB and yet is just as expensive as a Rustler. Why? it is the way it is made and the lack of automation.

My Bav 37 was built in little more than a week - hull laid up Monday and out the door on Friday, Keel fitted the next Monday, tests carried out and on a truck to Slovenia by Wednesday. 5600kg of materials and very similar set of functioning parts to a Rustler. All down to a high degree of automation - deck apertures all drilled and cut on a CNC in 1 1/2 hours, interior furnishings all preassembled from CNC cut panels outside the boat and dropped in - look at the Bavaria promotional video to get the full picture.

A Rustler 36 weighs 7680kg, compared with the current Bavaria 36 at 7000kg (and a bigger chunk is ballast). Imagine the boat re-engineered to modern production standards but weighing the same. I bet Bavaria would bite your hand off with an order for 200 (roughly one a day) and the cost would enable it to sell at much the same price as a current Bavaria 36. They would, however all have to be exactly the same.

The challenge then is to find 200 customers a year that would buy such a boat. Should be easy given the superiority of the design and if the price is half that of the boat as it is currently built.

Any takers?

 

[john_morris_uk]

Whilst waiting for the boat to settle head to wind, there is time to light the pipe that John Morris probably assumes us old fuddy-duddy long-keelers smoke.

My children regularly accuse me of being a G.O.M. (Grumpy Old Man) and as I am nearer to 60 than 50 and once upon a time I too smoked a pipe, I am not sure which bit of your implied description fits...

 

[john_morris_uk]

In my Twister I tried the technique of pointing her tail into the wind and yes, into a reasonable breeze or strong wind it does work.

My Tradewind, an even heavier displacement long keeler, seems to do the same and going astern some distance it's dead simple to steer, I simply give a blast on the bow thruster!

I don't know why those who keep extolling the virtues of long keels have started to regale us all with tales of how their long keeled boats weather cock with the bows blowing downwind and the problems they sometimes have in getting the bows to motor through the wind.

Its a trait that lots of boats have - long keeled or fin keeled. I suspect that one notices it more with a long keel because of their sluggishness in turning. Perhaps the fact that a fin keeled boat spins easier on its fin with its rudder out towards the end of its turning moment that masks the fact that the fin keeled boat suffers the same problems? If you are caught down a narrow channel with a strong breeze up your chuff, then often the only option is to reverse out, whatever your keel configuration.

 

[wklein]

All of that except that I wouldn't be seen dead in a beard! I cannot imagine why on earth anyone would countenance one.

Maybe we should start a "Whats the fascination with beards and yachtsmen thread" should be good for a few days. Or the Trusty "Are wooden boats slow?"

 

[john_morris_uk]

Maybe we should start a "Whats the fascination with beards and yachtsmen thread" should be good for a few days. Or the Trusty "Are wooden boats slow?"

I had a beard for thirty years. I shaved it off two and a half years ago. Is this a sign that I am no longer a proper sailor?

 

[Twister_Ken]

since we can wind up to 17kts if needed!

That's one heck of an anchor winch you've got there!

 

[Scotty_Tradewind]

My children regularly accuse me of being a G.O.M. (Grumpy Old Man) and as I am nearer to 60 than 50 and once upon a time I too smoked a pipe, I am not sure which bit of your implied description fits...

From the mouths of babes.... Certainly the G.O.M. appears to fit

So, if the hat fits....although the main quality required to confirm acceptance to the 'club', is the ability to laugh at oneself and to see the positive values of others.

and as Libby says, "You can trust a man with a long keeler"

 

[Poignard]

My children regularly accuse me of being a G.O.M. (Grumpy Old Man) and as I am nearer to 60 than 50 and once upon a time I too smoked a pipe, I am not sure which bit of your implied description fits...

I have not looked it up but I don't think a pipe-smoking fuddy-duddy is necessarily grumpy; unless he is trying to give up smoking.

 

[Poignard]

Its a trait that lots of boats have - long keeled or fin keeled. I suspect that one notices it more with a long keel because of their sluggishness in turning. Perhaps the fact that a fin keeled boat spins easier on its fin with its rudder out towards the end of its turning moment that masks the fact that the fin keeled boat suffers the same problems?

That's the nub of the problem. By the time you've got steerage way on, you're pointing the wrong way!

If you are caught down a narrow channel with a strong breeze up your chuff, then often the only option is to reverse out, whatever your keel configuration.

Not an option you can rely on with some boats, eg Twister. You might manage it if the wind is strong and directly aligned with the direction you want to go in but if the wind is coming over the quarter . . !

Much better to turn round and face it.