What's the fascination with long keels?

[flaming]

Point one - skipper will be more confident if his boat is easier to manoeuver ( I see "predictablity" as part of this as calculating a safety margin is the most challenging part of planning a close quarters manoeuvre)

The point about predictability is that is requires experience with the type. To you a long keel is predictable. To me it's not, as I have very little experience manoeuvring them. Vice versa with fin.

Point two - why yes of course I am - all my posts back this. (by the way dont put words in my mouth - I have never mentioned heavy displacement)

I still find this staggering.
Perhaps you would care to name a long keeled, light displacement boat?

I notice you are connected with Southampton and you introduce the word competition ("close quarters manoeuvering under sail competition")- well I am based in Southampton too. How about meeting up - all I insist on is that you have a boat of similar length - 30'. Lets get into some tight situations - the tighter the better and work on those safety margins. I would love to be proved wrong - always learning and its about time I bought a new boat. Pm me if you are interested.

Sounds fun! However in 4 weeks or so I quit the UK for a year, and I have a few things to organise before then, so don't think I'm going to find the time!

 

[chrisedwards]

The point about predictability is that is requires experience with the type. To you a long keel is predictable. To me it's not, as I have very little experience manoeuvring them. Vice versa with fin.


I still find this staggering.
Perhaps you would care to name a long keeled, light displacement boat?



Sounds fun! However in 4 weeks or so I quit the UK for a year, and I have a few things to organise before then, so don't think I'm going to find the time!

point one - I defer to earlier comments in this long post - experienced posters commenting on the predictability of long keelers. Also I question the logic of your statement - you confess to "having very little experience" manoeuvering long keelers so how can you pass an opinion? If you had the experience you may realise that they are more predictable???

point two - Are you really staggered? - again in this long post you will see photos of light dispacement long keelers - and I'm comparing to well designed fin and skeggers which the OP, quite rightly, was so keen to do. Are there not many examples of heavy fin keelers? And my own boat a Freedom 30 - you wont get a longer keel - straight stem/ deep forefoot/little rake aft and the British ones drawing a metre. Some with extra fins, some with centreboards and some with neither. I sail with neither as the water is too shallow. This 30' boat weighs just 7000 lbs - does that answer your question?

point three - pity you are going - maybe its time for a yachting magazine test - take a selection of boats into confined waters...

Just to conclude - it is good that we all have different opinions and we all sail for different reasons. I just came in to present another side to the original premise that a well designed fin keel can do everything better than a well designed long keeler and so the long keeler was an anachronism. This is just not my experience in the things I like doing.

 

[Blueboatman]

After such a long thread why is the ( well meaning) OP dismissing as blind prejudice the offshore qualities that I amongst many regard as highly desirable?
Deep tankage set low and plenty of it.
A boat that tracks through the water and not over the top of it.
A lower cabin sole meaning you get thrown around less down below and sleep at the axis of lateral rotation
All these qualities tend by and large to be the domain of a longer deeper moulded hull.
As a bi product you also get lower freeboard and better aesthetics.

AnywY the OPs question is irrelevant : the future is catamarans or so we are told

 

[chrisedwards]

After such a long thread why is the ( well meaning) OP dismissing as blind prejudice the offshore qualities that I amongst many regard as highly desirable?
Deep tankage set low and plenty of it.
A boat that tracks through the water and not over the top of it.
A lower cabin sole meaning you get thrown around less down below and sleep at the axis of lateral rotation
All these qualities tend by and large to be the domain of a longer deeper moulded hull.
As a bi product you also get lower freeboard and better aesthetics.

AnywY the OPs question is irrelevant : the future is catamarans or so we are told

because (I think) he is comparing with well/bluewater designed fin keelers and using the criteria above he may be right.

 

[Chrusty 1]

I think that there are more deeply entrenched viewpoints relating to boats than perhaps any other subject.

Take for example the well worn idea that Bavaria keels fall off left right and centre. Do they really? Of course not. One specific and very low-volume model, the Match, had an issue. The rest are all fine. Look at the thousands of charter and school Bavs out there being sailed day in day out, in all weathers, probably being grounded more in a year than most boats are in a lifetime and all clocking up huge mileages without issues.

Then there's the sterngear fouling issue. Again, look at the mileages covered by the boats mentioned above. They're not spending all the time adrift with fouled props and rudders are they?

The notion that most flat bottomed, fin keeled boats slam and will not sail themselves? I've sailed lots of different fin and spade boats and found that nearly all can be made to sail themselves if you trim properly. As for slamming, they don't come much more 'tea tray' bottomed than my little Evolution, but she seldom if ever slams. Admittedly, the first few times she launched herself of the back of a steep wave, I screwed my face up in expectation of the shuddering thump to follow, but it just didn't happen. If the hull is the right shape, and many are, slamming needn't be an issue.

Even a boat that was originally designed to fish under motor can be made into a class winning sailing boat. If you asked for an opinion on it though, the majority would tell you it'd never work and all be wrong because of this thing, that thing, or the other thing, depending on their personal prejudices.

Thoroughly agree, by the way, I likes your "Trifle"..........No I can't afford her

 

[Chrusty 1]

Ye Gods! I hope not! Most of 'em look like caravans, some of 'em a wizzo quick I grant you, but does that matter to a long distance blue water cruising sailor...somehow I doubt it.

I'll tell you what though, this is a great thread, and I for one have learned much and gleaned much to ponder on.

I certainly have nothing very useful to contribute, but I get the feeling that as with a lot of things, there is more than one way to skin a cat

 

[flaming]

point one - I defer to earlier comments in this long post - experienced posters commenting on the predictability of long keelers. Also I question the logic of your statement - you confess to "having very little experience" manoeuvering long keelers so how can you pass an opinion? If you had the experience you may realise that they are more predictable???g.

I haven't done much sailing on long keeled craft, but I've watched them trying to tack up rivers etc, and nothing I've ever seen screamed "handy in tight spaces".

Also, holding long keels up as predictable does imply that fin keelers aren't. Which I would strenuously disagree with. Can't remember the last time I though "well I wasn't expecting it to do that!"

 

[chrisedwards]

I haven't done much sailing on long keeled craft, but I've watched them trying to tack up rivers etc, and nothing I've ever seen screamed "handy in tight spaces".

Also, holding long keels up as predictable does imply that fin keelers aren't. Which I would strenuously disagree with. Can't remember the last time I though "well I wasn't expecting it to do that!"

point one - "watched them? watched them? nothing I have ever seen"...? !!! some experienced posters and myself (based on experience) say they are handy - all clearly explained in this long post.

"tack up rivers" - all well designed yachts can do this given a few boat lengths. Again read the posts - The OP himself talked about tacking a long keeled yacht up the Medina in Cowes Week.We are talking about really close quarters manoeuvering under sail - (you used this term earlier so why are you now changing the argument to merely "tacking up rivers"). Have you any real experience of this? In this situation you are going very slowly (do I need to defend this) - your keel is stalled - pure lateral resistance is king and I'm going round and round.


You turned down an opportunity to do a comparison - you appear to be based close to me and yet are still publicing an opinion based upon observations and no real experience.

Your last post - "imply that fin keels are NOT predictable" - you are putting words in my mouth again - this word predictable came from another experience poster. It is all clearly explained - by others as well. Your final argument is flawed and irrrelevant - you have no experience in long keelers so whatever experience you have on a fin leeler does not allow you to make comparisons. Practice on a good longkeeler and experience the greater predictability. -or not - in which case I would be interested in your opiniions.

 

[KellysEye]

>the majority of boats that sail off round the world now are no longer long keeled, but moderate displacement moderate fin keeled GRP yachts.

I think that's true about around the world rallies but my understanding is that over half the long term boats in the Pacific are metal. I've been in some anchorages in the boonies where that was the case and perhaps more interestingly more than half had two masts.

 

[flaming]

"tack up rivers" - all well designed yachts can do this given a few boat lengths. Again read the posts - The OP himself talked about tacking a long keeled yacht up the Medina in Cowes Week.We are talking about really close quarters manoeuvering under sail - (you used this term earlier so why are you now changing the argument to merely "tacking up rivers"). Have you any real experience of this? In this situation you are going very slowly (do I need to defend this) - your keel is stalled - pure lateral resistance is king and I'm going round and round.

I'm not changing the argument. Tacking up rivers is what I see a lot, and long keeled boats don't make that look easy.

Like I said - I have sailed long keelers, but nothing like as much as I have fin keelers, and I've never skippered one. All the skippers of such vessels I've sailed with were scared of tight spaces.

You turned down an opportunity to do a comparison - you appear to be based close to me and yet are still publicing an opinion based upon observations and no real experience.

Sorry, I'll just rearrange a year's worth of plans to accept a "challenge" from "someone on the internet" shall I?

Your last post - "imply that fin keels are NOT predictable" - you are putting words in my mouth again - this word predictable came from another experience poster. It is all clearly explained - by others as well. Your final argument is flawed and irrrelevant - you have no experience in long keelers so whatever experience you have on a fin leeler does not allow you to make comparisons. Practice on a good longkeeler and experience the greater predictability. -or not - in which case I would be interested in your opiniions.

[/quote]

My apologies, I thought you agreed with that?

So you're now saying fin keelers are just as predictable as Long keelers?

Yet these experienced posters have said that long keelers are better in close quarters because they are predictable. Logically that has to mean that fin keelers are not. Otherwise it would be like saying they're better because they have sails.

So I'm now confused. Could you please explain what characteristics of long keelers make them better in close quarters than fin keelers?

 

[chrisedwards]

I'm not changing the argument. Tacking up rivers is what I see a lot, and long keeled boats don't make that look easy.

Like I said - I have sailed long keelers, but nothing like as much as I have fin keelers, and I've never skippered one. All the skippers of such vessels I've sailed with were scared of tight spaces.



Sorry, I'll just rearrange a year's worth of plans to accept a "challenge" from "someone on the internet" shall I?

My apologies, I thought you agreed with that?

So you're now saying fin keelers are just as predictable as Long keelers?

Yet these experienced posters have said that long keelers are better in close quarters because they are predictable. Logically that has to mean that fin keelers are not. Otherwise it would be like saying they're better because they have sails.

So I'm now confused. Could you please explain what characteristics of long keelers make them better in close quarters than fin keelers?[/QUOTE]

So - you -

will rate observation above experience

see "tacking up rivers" as close quarters manoeuvering

see a genuine opportunity to learn for both of us as a "challenge" - you introduced the word "competition"

put words in my mouth - I am saying long keelers are more predictable - this is not saying fin keelers are not predictable. Read the posts - this is clear.


As for your last request - I have laboured this again and again in so many posts

All your questions have already been addressed -many times- please read the posts carefully - I am going round and round simply explaning a simple point - how in one way, in my experience, a well designed longkeeler is better than a well designed fin keeler - you are clutching at straws. If you disagree thats fine but my opinion is based on extensive experience and yours - you admit - is not.

 

[chrisedwards]

I'm not changing the argument. Tacking up rivers is what I see a lot, and long keeled boats don't make that look easy.

Like I said - I have sailed long keelers, but nothing like as much as I have fin keelers, and I've never skippered one. All the skippers of such vessels I've sailed with were scared of tight spaces.



Sorry, I'll just rearrange a year's worth of plans to accept a "challenge" from "someone on the internet" shall I?

My apologies, I thought you agreed with that?

So you're now saying fin keelers are just as predictable as Long keelers?

Yet these experienced posters have said that long keelers are better in close quarters because they are predictable. Logically that has to mean that fin keelers are not. Otherwise it would be like saying they're better because they have sails.

So I'm now confused. Could you please explain what characteristics of long keelers make them better in close quarters than fin keelers?[/QUOTE]

 

[chrisedwards]

My apologies, I thought you agreed with that?

So you're now saying fin keelers are just as predictable as Long keelers?

Yet these experienced posters have said that long keelers are better in close quarters because they are predictable. Logically that has to mean that fin keelers are not. Otherwise it would be like saying they're better because they have sails.

So I'm now confused. Could you please explain what characteristics of long keelers make them better in close quarters than fin keelers?

[/QUOTE]

I agree with you - you are confused - all the answers to your questions are in the previous posts - read them carefully please.

 

[Chrusty 1]

What a shame that an interesting thread like this is degenerating into mardy arsed comments and point scoring

 

[flaming]

So - you -

will rate observation above experience

No. But adding my observations with my experience I have reached a conclusion.

see "tacking up rivers" as close quarters manoeuvering

No, but a boat that struggles with that is not one I'd choose for close quarters manoeuvring.

see a genuine opportunity to learn for both of us as a "challenge" - you introduced the word "competition"

You can couch it however you like. I'm not available.

put words in my mouth - I am saying long keelers are more predictable - this is not saying fin keelers are not predictable. Read the posts - this is clear.

Sorry so me getting "not predictable" from what you wrote is putting words in your mouth, when what you meant was "quite predictable, just not as predictable as long keelers".

Is that right?

As for your last request - I have laboured this again and again in so many posts

All your questions have already been addressed -many times- please read the posts carefully - I am going round and round simply explaning a simple point - how in one way, in my experience, a well designed longkeeler is better than a well designed fin keeler - you are clutching at straws. If you disagree thats fine but my opinion is based on extensive experience and yours - you admit - is not.

So, just to be clear - your argument is that long keelers make better close quarters manoeuvring vessels simply, and only, because they are more predictable than fin keelers. But this doesn't mean that fin keelers aren't predictable, just that long keelers are more predictable....?

If that is the case, then yes, I refute that absolutely based on my (admittedly limited) experience of sailing on long keelers, talking to people who have owned long keelers and plenty of watching them sailing.

Plus my knowledge of just what is possible with a well designed fin keeler.

 

[Poignard]

What a shame that an interesting thread like this is degenerating into mardy arsed comments and point scoring

'twas ever thus

 

[Chrusty 1]

'twas ever thus

Thought I was in the lounge for a minute!..like bloody kids they are!

 

[viago]

What a shame that an interesting thread like this is degenerating into mardy arsed comments and point scoring

lol, unusually for these pages the bickering and one-upmanship didnt start until page 2. thats the best bit.
the poster answered his own question at the start and sounds like he knows what hes talking about. so what else is there to do? personally, i prefer a huge lump of lead below because it looks safer. not very scientific but i dont know of any long keels to have snapped off.

 

[Scotty_Tradewind]

I love my long keeler.......

 

[Otter]

I love my long keeler.......

I love mine too