What's the fascination with long keels?
- Thread starter john_morris_uk
- Start date
Bosun Higgs
N/A
I very much doubt if that is the controlling factor. I once had a Prout cat with not one but two long keels and a draft from memory of about 1 metre. It had the directional stability that you would expect when it was going forward at pace, but as soon as you started going slowly it blew sideways at a rate of knots. Windage and weight and grip on the water were the issues.
Many modern fin keelers will do just what you say but I reckon its as much about the forefoot and the windage and the weight as anything else. How do you find your Arcona in that respect? Is it worse than the Twister was?
Twister_Ken
Well-Known Member
Yes. I have to make much more allowance for the bow being pushed down wind - sometimes almost overshooting the berth because the bow will spin in so quickly once the wind gets hold of it. I also often have to come in with more speed to avoid keel stall and getting shoved sideways across the aisle.
alant
Well-Known Member
Exactly.
These Bluewater boats, were fin keel & manually steered around the globe many times - http://www.sailingnetworks.com/design/pictures/d-challenge-67
rotrax
Well-Known Member
"Originally Posted by alant
As I posted earlier, long keel yachts are made in relativly large volume by Island Packet. Their Bob Johnson designs are trademarked as "Full Foil Keels" Look at their website and check the hull shape- looks like a long keel to me!"
You sure you've got the correct poster, cos this below is the only one I've made on this thread! I've never mentioned Island Packet!
("If long keels are so good, why doesn't anybody make them any more.
I loved sailing the Nic 32, stable, good in very strong weather, lovely motion but a nightmare in marinas, cramped and not particularly fast.
You've answered your question "why doesn't anybody make them any more."
"but a nightmare in marinas" )
I cant imagine how but posts 104 and 112 quotes dont belong to the posters headlined! I posted saying that IP made long keel yachts, not Snowleopard
alant
Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by snowleopard
"Originally Posted by alant
As I posted earlier, long keel yachts are made in relativly large volume by Island Packet. Their Bob Johnson designs are trademarked as "Full Foil Keels" Look at their website and check the hull shape- looks like a long keel to me!"
You sure you've got the correct poster, cos this below is the only one I've made on this thread! I've never mentioned Island Packet!
("If long keels are so good, why doesn't anybody make them any more.
I loved sailing the Nic 32, stable, good in very strong weather, lovely motion but a nightmare in marinas, cramped and not particularly fast.
You've answered your question "why doesn't anybody make them any more."
"but a nightmare in marinas" )
I cant imagine how but posts 104 and 112 quotes dont belong to the posters headlined! I posted saying that IP made long keel yachts, not Snowleopard
Neither of those posts is mine!
rotrax
Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by snowleopard
"Originally Posted by alant
As I posted earlier, long keel yachts are made in relativly large volume by Island Packet. Their Bob Johnson designs are trademarked as "Full Foil Keels" Look at their website and check the hull shape- looks like a long keel to me!"
You sure you've got the correct poster, cos this below is the only one I've made on this thread! I've never mentioned Island Packet!
("If long keels are so good, why doesn't anybody make them any more.
I loved sailing the Nic 32, stable, good in very strong weather, lovely motion but a nightmare in marinas, cramped and not particularly fast.
You've answered your question "why doesn't anybody make them any more."
"but a nightmare in marinas" )
I cant imagine how but posts 104 and 112 quotes dont belong to the posters headlined! I posted saying that IP made long keel yachts, not Snowleopard
Neither of those posts is mine!
Aint technology great!
Kukri
Well-Known Member
My old gaff cutter has perfect manners under sail - more than one visiting helmsman has braced himself and taken a firm grip of the huge carved ash tiller, only to relax after a few moments and steer with his fingertips, on any point of sailing and in any wind strength.
However, this has to be paid for - in marinas and locks, and at close quarters generally, she is an absolute swine.
Under power, with a wind, the bows will blow off downwind given the slightest opportunity, and it is sometimes necessary to do a 360 to get back on course...turning to port she will spin on a sixpence - turning to starboard we need about a cable's length...put her astern when trying to come alongside port side to and she promptly leaps six feet sideways away from the pontoon or pier (quarter mounted prop on port side...)
However, this has to be paid for - in marinas and locks, and at close quarters generally, she is an absolute swine.
Under power, with a wind, the bows will blow off downwind given the slightest opportunity, and it is sometimes necessary to do a 360 to get back on course...turning to port she will spin on a sixpence - turning to starboard we need about a cable's length...put her astern when trying to come alongside port side to and she promptly leaps six feet sideways away from the pontoon or pier (quarter mounted prop on port side...)
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Robin
Well-Known Member
westernman
Well-Known Member
Like bow thrusters on long keelers?
Or this big long keeler with twin props hydraulically driven from the same engine. One can be run forwards and the other in reverse for manoevering.
http://www.sail-mascotte.co.uk/Mascotte/Home.html
rotrax
Well-Known Member
Its at it again! The quotes have the wrong names for the posters. Webmaster-whats going on?
KellysEye
Well-Known Member
>Just because you can point out some crappy lightweight fin keeled boats that shouldn't be taken out of sight of land doesn't tar all fin keeled boats with the same brush.
I'm not sure what crappy lightweight fin keeled boats are. The lowest priced boats are generally Bavarias and many cross the Atlantic every year. My view on long distance boats is they should be well built thus not likely to suffer rudder/keel/rig damage, and comfortable in bad weather. To me that means long keel (which we have) or long fin and skeg hung rudder preferrably with an encapsulated keel. We looked at those such as Bowmans, however we decided we wanted a steel boat. Others will have their own opinion on what suits them for ocean sailing, as seen here. If I see boats I wouldn't go ocean sailing in I don't think the owner is wrong to have chosen the boat he/she has bought, it's just a decision different from mine.
I'm not sure what crappy lightweight fin keeled boats are. The lowest priced boats are generally Bavarias and many cross the Atlantic every year. My view on long distance boats is they should be well built thus not likely to suffer rudder/keel/rig damage, and comfortable in bad weather. To me that means long keel (which we have) or long fin and skeg hung rudder preferrably with an encapsulated keel. We looked at those such as Bowmans, however we decided we wanted a steel boat. Others will have their own opinion on what suits them for ocean sailing, as seen here. If I see boats I wouldn't go ocean sailing in I don't think the owner is wrong to have chosen the boat he/she has bought, it's just a decision different from mine.
chrisedwards
Well-Known Member
Point one - skipper will be more confident if his boat is easier to manoeuver ( I see "predictablity" as part of this as calculating a safety margin is the most challenging part of planning a close quarters manoeuvre)
Point two - why yes of course I am - all my posts back this. (by the way dont put words in my mouth - I have never mentioned heavy displacement)
I notice you are connected with Southampton and you introduce the word competition ("close quarters manoeuvering under sail competition")- well I am based in Southampton too. How about meeting up - all I insist on is that you have a boat of similar length - 30'. Lets get into some tight situations - the tighter the better and work on those safety margins. I would love to be proved wrong - always learning and its about time I bought a new boat. Pm me if you are interested.
rotrax
Well-Known Member
This has been a long and, as might have been expected, divided post. I knew I had seen something vaugely relevant somewhere a while ago so I spent a little time and have found it. It was a guy asking advice on the Island Packet Homeport regarding which boat might be suitable for him and his family. His shortlist was HR, IP and one I am not familiar with, a Tartan. After a fair bit of for's and againsts all three the OP said that the more he looked at it the nearest thing he could buy "Off the shelf" with most of the desireable features suggested by Nigel Calder's cruising bible was an Island Packet. I have not got Nigels book, but if its true it does suggest that for some serious blue water sailors an IP might be a good choice.
Twister_Ken
Well-Known Member
May not be an reliable witness yer'onour!
Tranona
Well-Known Member
Maybe not such a good recommendation, particularly as NC has changed his mind after 30 years owning the ultimate in long keel bruisers (Colin Archer types) and bought a Fin and Skeg - in fact two in quick succession because the first one was a bit "old fashioned" - both Malo 45's BTW.
rotrax
Well-Known Member
That may well be the case, but at the time he wrote it-and I know not when-the characteristics he espoused were met in almost full measure by the IP. Has he has had a change of heart or have his requirements in a yacht changed?
Tranona
Well-Known Member
The latter. He was in love with his original double ender then when it got old changed to a Pacific Seacraft 43 (epitome of the bluewater yacht in its day) then recognised that such boats have their limitations with regard to performance and space for a given length. He has written at length about his decisions in YM over the years.
In a way he reflects the general trend. What is often forgotten is that buyers of modern designs, almost by definition have owned older style boats in the past. Just think about it many owners (not all) of substantial cruising boats are aged 50+ and will likely have cut their cruising teeth in 30-35ft long keelers but now own modern fin keelers. Most would never go back. Wonder why? Bit like me and oysters (crustaceans), did not like them until I tried them, now can't get enough of them. Despised Bavarias and all that went with them until I tried one and bought my own.
john_morris_uk
Well-Known Member
I think it's a bit of both. I also have met Nigel Calder and he has come to realise that you can have the desirable attributes as required by him for blue water sailing in a well designed and built fin keeled boat.
What I find interesting is how discussions polarise people. For example if for some reason we were changing boats I actually wouldn't stop looking at long keeled boats as a possible replacement. Despite my arguing that they are not the be all and end all of deep water cruising, if the right boat came along, I would still look at it.
What I had hoped to do by starting this discussion, was to try to get people to see that long keels are a bit of an anachronism. They are as much a result of the way boats were forced to be built because of the nature of the materials that were available for hundreds of years as to any hydro dynamic reality. Put it another way, if you have only got wood and traditional construction methods, and you want to build a hull that's not going to fall appart in its first encounter with heavy weather, and yet can still sail to windward, you are going to end up with a long keel. It's the nature of wood and the way the fibres run. Please don't cite Thames barges or Dutch craft with their lee boards as alternatives because neither of those designs were meant for ocean voyaging.
So long keels are found to be effective and to have many desirable characteristics. All fine, but what I still don't understand is how people get so addicted to them when materials have enabled more efficient designs to evolve.
We end up with a situation akin to a football fan supporting their club that is playing useless unattractive football, relegated, going into receivership and deserving no support, but the faithful few remain, because the players still play football and they remember the good old days when they still played with a pigs bladder or a leather football! Perhaps I overstate the case... but if I have got a few people to think about what the really desireable characteristics of a long term live aboard cruising yacht are then starting this thread was worthwhile.
The one thing I truly NEVER expected was to find someone arguing that they would choose the character of a long keeled boat for close quarters maneuvering under sail!!
I have also been disappointed by people referring to poorly designed fin keeled boats as reasons why all fin keeled boats should be damned.
Despite whatever I or anyone else writes or thinks on here, the majority of boats that sail off round the world now are no longer long keeled, but moderate displacement moderate fin keeled GRP yachts. Most people don't want to test themselves with the rigours of high latitude sailing, or beating round the Capes. Most people stick to temperate waters and sail off the wind as much as they can. Most people also like to think they are not sailing a brick and although steady process can be enjoyed, sailing slow is not a vertue.
It's always a compromise and there is only one truth that I try to remember in all of this. The view from your cockpit when you sip your rum punch is the same from a Folkboat or a million pound super yacht....
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rotrax
Well-Known Member
Well put. Now you mention it I seem to remember Nigel Calder using the Malo he was having built as a development vehicle for leading edge yacht stuff, no doubt sponsored in some measure by the manufacturers of said hardware (and perhaps software?). Our Island Packet was purchased for several reasons, one being its comfort alongside or on the hook, as well as giving us a reasonable chance of getting where we want to go. So far it has worked pretty well. After spending 45 years in a pastime where it was de rigeur to go as fast as possible, sailing has proved a perfect foil...........
