What do you think of this one?

[Poignard]

It would be good if this information was always readily available. I must admit it came as a bit of a suprise to me that not every production cruising yacht could be dried out. I'd probably not have been able to afford to run a yacht if I couldn't do my antifouling between tides. A robust keel is far more important to me than pointing ability.

Is a yacht that can't support its own weight on its keel, fit to be called a 'cruising yacht'? I'd say it isn't.

Harrumph!

 

[MisterBaxter]

Is a yacht that can't support its own weight on its keel, fit to be called a 'cruising yacht'? I'd say it isn't.

Harrumph!

I feel like a cruising yacht ought to be ok if it's drying out onto hard sand and just as the keel takes the weight of the boat, someone comes past in a big semi-displacement motor cruiser dragging a foot of wake behind them. Don't ask how I came to form that opinion...

 

[Ammonite]

I'd always assumed (wrongly by the sound of it) that the majority of cruising boats were designed to take their full weight on the keel, at least for a while, and if they couldn't it was because of a design flaw or because they were likely to fall over, rather than not being able to take the weight. This was on the basis that if they didn't have the strength to do this they wouldn't be able to cope with a typical grounding.

Can anyone provide a few examples of cruising boats that can't do this and either need to be fully suspended in a cradle or have a set proportion of the weight on the keel.

 

[Sea Change]

I'd always assumed (wrongly by the sound of it) that the majority of cruising boats were designed to take their full weight on the keel, at least for a while, and if they couldn't it was because of a design flaw or because they were likely to fall over, rather than not being able to take the weight. This was on the basis that if they didn't have the strength to do this they wouldn't be able to cope with a typical grounding.

Can anyone provide a few examples of cruising boats that can't do this and either need to be fully suspended in a cradle or have a set proportion of the weight on the keel.

The first one that came to my attention was a Jeanneau 45.2. Friends were considering buying one but found that the props had sunk in to soft ground, placing too much weight on the keel, which punched up through the hull causing a lot of damage.

It did suprise me. I previously kept my boat ashore using yachtlegs, with almost the entire weight on the keel. The things you do when you don't have access to a boatyard.

 

[WindyWindyWindy]

Some Owners' manuals have the legal specification "not to be dried against a wall".

The owners manual for a GS 46.3 which I think this model must be, doesn't mention anything about drying out.
Is there that much weight in one of these when the keel is on the ground anyway? Surely it's only 7 or 8 tonnes once the ballast is grounded?

CANTIERE DEL PARDO GRAND SOLEIL 46.3' OWNER'S MANUAL Pdf Download

 

[Ammonite]

Deleted

 

[boomerangben]

Whether a yacht should be designed to sit on its keel will (I guess - I don’t have access to it) be defined by the appropriate EN ISO (s) for structure and loads to which yachts have to be designed for RCD certification. If it can or can’t should then be stated in the owners manual. Just because a MAB can sit on its keel doesn’t mean to say AWB should be able to.

I wonder if the couple wisely (or were told not to) didn’t include the actual incident on you tube for legal reasons in case it got messy?

 

[doug748]

The owners manual for a GS 46.3 which I think this model must be, doesn't mention anything about drying out.
Is there that much weight in one of these when the keel is on the ground anyway? Surely it's only 7 or 8 tonnes once the ballast is grounded?

CANTIERE DEL PARDO GRAND SOLEIL 46.3' OWNER'S MANUAL Pdf Download

That's the handbook referred to in a previous post (100). It's an earlier model, the information on hauling out is in chap 13, it's fairly trivial and generic except for the positioning of strops.

It's the exaggerated short chord on the new models that causes trouble, things like IMOCA 60,s are dried out on trestles. Any cruising boats designed in such a manner are yet to be revealed

.

 

[Daydream believer]

About 20 years ago a club member bought a new Dehler 29 for racing, In the winter he laid it up stood in a launching trailer on its keel on the club hard. Mast was removed.
When it was windy one could see the stern flexing up & down at least 4 inches until he finally put a prop under it.

 

[Roberto]

About 20 years ago a club member bought a new Dehler 29 for racing, In the winter he laid it up stood in a launching trailer on its keel on the club hard. Mast was removed.
When it was windy one could see the stern flexing up & down at least 4 inches until he finally put a prop under it.

Maybe Dehler found their 31' scantlings too generous

 

[Zing]

Sooner or later a yard will lower all boats onto the front or rear of a keel to some extent. They have no way to know the loads are evenly distributed, so a keel needs to be capable of dealing with that. This boat wasn’t able to do so. It was designed or built completely inappropriately.

My personal view is an adhesive liner hull design, as appears to be used in this boat, is more vulnerable to design, manufacturing and bonding errors than a fully laminated hull. It is also harder to fix, as will soon be seen. I suspect this failure is in part due to the construction system.

 

[dunedin]

Funds will never allow but I was really coming round to the idea of a much newer boat. If ever there was a put off, then that keel and what apparantly tries in vein to support it is a massive turn off. Utter madness.

I could drop my twister and the other thing from a great height and the keels would be intact. Not much else would but I’d not sink.

Steveeasy

Don’t let one tube tale put you off a “much newer boat” as
1) That clip is attracting attention as it is so unusual, even for torpedo ballasted keels
2) The vast majority of modern boats don’t have torpedo ballast keels anyway
3) Hundreds of thousands of modern cruising boats are sailing, and being lifted ashore, without issues
There are many criteria more important than worrying about impacts of being “dropped from a great height”

 

[Daydream believer]

I was not concentrating when I exited Ramsgate, circa 2004, & went the wrong side of the stbd hand buoy at 6kts. The boat hit something hard and stopped dead. I ended up thrown from the cockpit into the cabin.
The boat (Hanse 311)did not suffer the slightest damage, apart from the antifouling. Not all AWBs are built lightly
However, in 2014 I ran aground near Inverness in the gentlest of circumstances & the rudder split down the middle. Presumably it settled on one of the many boulders on those banks.

 

[dunedin]

I feel like a cruising yacht ought to be ok if it's drying out onto hard sand and just as the keel takes the weight of the boat, someone comes past in a big semi-displacement motor cruiser dragging a foot of wake behind them. Don't ask how I came to form that opinion...

But in a huge amount of cruising areas - such as the Baltic and the Mediterannean - the concept of “drying out” is completely alien / unnecessary.
Even where we sail in the UK we have never in 25 years chosen to use a drying berth as unnecessary.

If the UK had a significant sailing yacht industry we might be able to build boats for our specific requirements, but that horse bolted many years ago (our boat industry now mostly superyacht for global use).

 

[Tranona]

But in a huge amount of cruising areas - such as the Baltic and the Mediterannean - the concept of “drying out” is completely alien / unnecessary.
Even where we sail in the UK we have never in 25 years chosen to use a drying berth as unnecessary.

If the UK had a significant sailing yacht industry we might be able to build boats for our specific requirements, but that horse bolted many years ago (our boat industry now mostly superyacht for global use).

I chuckle when some people make categoric statements about what features are "essential" to be a proper cruising boat when only a small minority actually complie. The rest of the world gets on pretty well with their deviant non compliant boats.

 

[Sea Change]

I've made pretty extensive use of the ability to dry out, and I've done it far more often than I've used a boatyard. Mostly due to the combination of lack of local facilities and tight budget. I haven't used it in the course of cruising, but it was the only way that I could do basic maintenance.

 

[MisterBaxter]

But in a huge amount of cruising areas - such as the Baltic and the Mediterannean - the concept of “drying out” is completely alien / unnecessary.
Even where we sail in the UK we have never in 25 years chosen to use a drying berth as unnecessary.

If the UK had a significant sailing yacht industry we might be able to build boats for our specific requirements, but that horse bolted many years ago (our boat industry now mostly superyacht for global use).

I hear what you're saying, but I don't think that your keel only gets bumped on the bottom when deliberately drying out in tidal waters. Unintended groundings on hard sandy bottoms (eg in the Med) will put similar stresses on a hull. People are of course welcome to cruise in boats that can't cope with that, but it's not my idea of a cruising boat.
That said, it's obviously all compromises - I think we'd all want a boat to survive a bit of a bump, but how much of a bump exactly, given the cost in terms of weight and build cost? I had a steel boat once that would probably have been fine after being dropped a couple of feet onto concrete, but it was maddeningly slow under sail, no doubt in part due to its great weight.

 

[geem]

I hear what you're saying, but I don't think that your keel only gets bumped on the bottom when deliberately drying out in tidal waters. Unintended groundings on hard sandy bottoms (eg in the Med) will put similar stresses on a hull. People are of course welcome to cruise in boats that can't cope with that, but it's not my idea of a cruising boat.
The incident I had in mind took place in a friend's Elizabethan 29. It hit the ground with a really horrific bang and my friend was terrified that something major had cracked. But after having it lifted and inspecting it carefully, there was no damage.

We hit an unmarked wreck off the south coast of Cuba. We went over it at about 5 knts. It lifted the boat up out of the water a good 18 inches. We immediately drops the sails then the anchor and I dived over the side to inspect the damage. We had some deep gouges in the keel but nothing more.

 

[srm]

I had a steel boat once that would probably have been fine after being dropped a couple of feet onto concrete, but it was maddeningly slow under sail, no doubt in part due to its great weight.

Or a case of hull shape and/or sail area?
My old steel boat was built to the lines and rig dimensions of a classic wood cruiser/racer. Even though heavier than the design weight, partly due to bigger engine and larger fresh water tanks, it still sailed very well.
It came with a largish dent in the front of the keel where a previous owner had hit a rock off Fingal's Cave at speed.

 

[Mister E]

Regardless of keel design the owner is responsible for their boat, even when they get a yard or others to move it. Its not clear from the video that the boat was at sufficient angle in the slings to put an unfair load on the keel. Instead of concentrating on preparing a social media post the owner should have been paying critical attention to his boat. Someone else could have played with the camera. Looking from different angles may well have alerted him to the problem and had it rectified before putting the boat on the ground.
I refused a lift out with a harbour crane when I saw that one of the slings was frayed; driver tried to reassure me that it was safe, and it may well have been, but my boat - my decision. After I still refused the crane driver and his buddy then set off in their truck and borrowed another set of slings in good condition.

From what I could see in the video shown is that the damage had already been done.
In one part he was shown phoning a surveyor I think.