What do you think of this one?
- Thread starter geem
- Start date
Tranona
Well-known member
With a travel hoist the 2 slings can operate independently as can the props on the cradle. The norm is to lower the boat level using both slings until the keel touches the blocks then bring the props in to meet the hull before finally releasing the slings. There should be no need to lower one end with this type of lift.
doug748
Well-known member
"........ meticulously designed by Botin & Carkeek. HI stands as a true performance cruiser, basking in the glory of clinching the European Yacht of the Year award in 2010. As the 18th hull build, she’s lavishly equipped, meticulously updated, and consistently enhanced over the years."
Lovely boat, designed by computer, modern materials, stress analysis, built to the highest standards sails like a dream. So unlike the unsuitable boats of yore.
The keel falling off seems conclusive proof for some of our one-eyed posters.
.
Lovely boat, designed by computer, modern materials, stress analysis, built to the highest standards sails like a dream. So unlike the unsuitable boats of yore.
The keel falling off seems conclusive proof for some of our one-eyed posters.
.
steveeasy
Well-known member
My interpretation is that the boat was not sitting with the keel vertical and bow/nose down. so to correct this they placed the weight on to the keel which would clearly place excess force to the front structure. What I dont understand is, what they were trying to achieve is doing this, and how this would work. I think they have some explaining to do.
Steveeasy
Tranona
Well-known member
Where does it show that the keel has "fallen off"? The structure of the boat has been damaged but it is unclear how this happened - lots of assumptions and theories but no clear explanation."........ meticulously designed by Botin & Carkeek. HI stands as a true performance cruiser, basking in the glory of clinching the European Yacht of the Year award in 2010. As the 18th hull build, she’s lavishly equipped, meticulously updated, and consistently enhanced over the years."
Lovely boat, designed by computer, modern materials, stress analysis, built to the highest standards sails like a dream. So unlike the unsuitable boats of yore.
The keel falling off seems conclusive proof for some of our one-eyed posters.
.
Baggywrinkle
Well-known member
No, it was a typical geem "let's bash everything designed after the mid 70s" thread ... you do have form.
I guess that's why you chose not to mention the plywood you could "scoop out with a spoon" on your foredeck, and instead said "we haven't seen any rotting ply bulkheads. All ply is hardwood Brunzeil ply. Arguably the best plywood in the world." ... and it's Bruynzeel for future reference.
I'm sure your boat has no vices whatsoever, and it is the strongest, most seaworthy boat ever to cross the pond - it's faster than anything else, more stable, and way better than anything built in the last 45 years ....
... it's great you are so passionate about your boat, but in reality, this is what you get if you look for a Trintella 44 today ...
https://www.boot24.com/boot/1977-trintella-44-ketch-9288991/
TRINTELLA 44'KETCH - Keppel Bay Marina
https://www.yachtworld.com/yacht/1976-trintella-44-9371158/
Trintella 44/45 for sale Greece, Trintella boats for sale, Trintella used boat sales, Trintella Sailing Yachts For Sale 1978 44 - Apollo Duck
... every one is guaranteed to be a project.
There is a reason they are similarly priced to a turn of the century Bavaria 40 Ocean ...... https://www.yachtworld.co.uk/yacht/2003-bavaria-40-ocean-9454866/
... the world has moved on, (and chain lockers or lazarettes don't drain into the bilges any more)
Ardenfour
Active member
geem
Well-known member
You really don't get it do you. You wouldn't know a quality boat if it hit you in the stern. Plywood in a deck that has been open to water due to bad installation of a new windlass has little to do with bulkheads. If you can find plywood better than Brunzeil then please let the forum know. It has a world wide reputation for being the best.No, it was a typical geem "let's bash everything designed after the mid 70s" thread ... you do have form.
I guess that's why you chose not to mention the plywood you could "scoop out with a spoon" on your foredeck, and instead said "we haven't seen any rotting ply bulkheads. All ply is hardwood Brunzeil ply. Arguably the best plywood in the world." ... and it's Bruynzeel for future reference.
I'm sure your boat has no vices whatsoever, and it is the strongest, most seaworthy boat ever to cross the pond - it's faster than anything else, more stable, and way better than anything built in the last 45 years ....
... it's great you are so passionate about your boat, but in reality, this is what you get if you look for a Trintella 44 today ...
https://www.boot24.com/boot/1977-trintella-44-ketch-9288991/
TRINTELLA 44'KETCH - Keppel Bay Marina
https://www.yachtworld.com/yacht/1976-trintella-44-9371158/
Trintella 44/45 for sale Greece, Trintella boats for sale, Trintella used boat sales, Trintella Sailing Yachts For Sale 1978 44 - Apollo Duck
... every one is guaranteed to be a project.
There is a reason they are similarly priced to a turn of the century Bavaria 40 Ocean ...... https://www.yachtworld.co.uk/yacht/2003-bavaria-40-ocean-9454866/
... the world has moved on, (and chain lockers or lazarettes don't drain into the bilges any more)
You seem like a bitter little man who can't accept that others don't crave your boat. Get over it
Tranona
Well-known member
OOOOH touchy touchy. I am sure your ply bulkheads like any other will rot if exposed to water from leaks. Not sure where he says your boat is not a "quality" boat (whatever that means), just, like me that like any boat it needs the constant maintenance and upgrading you carry out to keep it at a high level in just the same way as a production boat. The examples he gives demonstrate that the "quality" is not reflected in the market value as they sell for similar prices to production boats half the age.
Lets face it boats like yours are in a tiny minority and always have been because of the initial cost of purchase and high running costs. If that was all that was available the vast majority of sailors of every type would not be able to pursue their dreams.
Never sure why you have to keep defending your decision and criticising others at the slightest opportunity then get offended when somebody puts forward a reasoned argument from an alternate perspective..
geem
Well-known member
I don't have to defend my decision. I an super happy with it. We have over 40,000nm on the boat in my ownership over the last 10 years.
There are many older boats like mine cruising the world. New is not necessarily better.
Contrary to what some think on this forum, some fantastic old boats exist from an era when money was no object. Quality was king.
My goal isn't to criticise people who bought modern production boats but instead to defend the decision to buy an older boat out of preference. Like I have said numerous times. It not a cost thing. I can buy I new 44ft boat tomorrow. I simply don't want one
Last edited:
Baggywrinkle
Well-known member
Nonsense, let's try an analogy ....
Rolls Royce from the 70s vs modern Rolls Royce ....
...both quality cars, but the one on the left is dated and needs to be looked after by a car enthusiast, the one on the right is faster, quieter, more comfortable and overall simply better than it's predecessor - you might get the odd nutter claiming the 70s version is a better car, but that's nonsense.
Quality boats from the 70s vs modern equivalent (unfortunately Trintella went bust so they have no modern equivalent, Kraken will have to do.)
...both quality boats, but the one on the left is dated and needs to be looked after by an enthusiast, the one on the right is faster, more comfortable, more practical, and overall simply more capable than the 70s design.
Given the choice of the two, I'd have the Kraken in a heartbeat if I had the budget, including over the boat I just bought. No-one would claim the Kraken isn't a quality boat would they? In the 70s I might even have bought a Trintella if I could have afforded it, as there was nothing available offering all the mod-cons and design features new yachts now offer.
But in the present, I, like many other boat owners, have to make a choice. Budget is usually limited so there are a spectrum of boats available - from an 80s Rolls Royce equivalent, to a brand new Fiat 500 equivalent. Size, accommodation, convenience features, condition, equipment, intended usage, interior layout, sail controls ... these all come together and result in a purchase, and because we are all different, with differing tastes and requirements, we end up making different decisions. There is no one answer, and one persons ideal boat is another persons nightmare. It really is that simple. A friend in my neighbouring berth in Marina Veruda has completely rebuilt a HR41 to as new condition - it looks like it came out of the factory yesterday, but as much as I admire it, and the persistence and craftsmanship required to restore it, I couldn't live with it because the fundamental design doesn't work for me.
That's the way it is. Sailors are individuals and I think anyone new to sailing needs unbiased practical advice - I'm happy to accept that grounding a modern boat hard can result in serious damage, but it's not something you do on purpose, and getting blown onto a lee shore and wrecked worries me way more to be honest - and in that situation it's pot luck if the boat can be salvaged, regardless what it is - but an older one is more likely to be written off due to the intrinsic lower market value.
Please don't get too upset, but that is a textbook case of narcissistic projection if ever I saw one
.... a moment of self reflection might be in order. Hope your repairs and upgrades go well and that you get back out there enjoying your boat soon. Byeeee. What Is Narcissistic Projection & How to Respond
doug748
Well-known member
I see it the same way.
The smart money is on a pre existing problem that was revealed by bringing the boat ashore. It highlights how unsuitable these types of design are for adventurous sailing. Not just the keel but the whole concept and execution of the thing is up the spout for serious offshore amateur stuff. Racing design, even way back, sets fashions that are often poor cruising compromises.
No doubt you can sail one of these boats around the world no problem, you can sail a Wayfarer to Iceland, you can go over Niagara Falls in a barrel. However the compromised fundamental design and construction lends away from reliability, self sufficiency and robustness that most will look for offshore.
Great boat for the Med though and probably half the real price of such a boat from 40 years ago
.
geem
Well-known member
Nonsense, let's try an analogy ....
Rolls Royce from the 70s vs modern Rolls Royce ....
View attachment 182671View attachment 182673
...both quality cars, but the one on the left is dated and needs to be looked after by a car enthusiast, the one on the right is faster, quieter, more comfortable and overall simply better than it's predecessor - you might get the odd nutter claiming the 70s version is a better car, but that's nonsense.
Quality boats from the 70s vs modern equivalent (unfortunately Trintella went bust so they have no modern equivalent, Kraken will have to do.)
View attachment 182674View attachment 182675
...both quality boats, but the one on the left is dated and needs to be looked after by an enthusiast, the one on the right is faster, more comfortable, more practical, and overall simply more capable than the 70s design.
Given the choice of the two, I'd have the Kraken in a heartbeat if I had the budget, including over the boat I just bought. No-one would claim the Kraken isn't a quality boat would they? In the 70s I might even have bought a Trintella if I could have afforded it, as there was nothing available offering all the mod-cons and design features new yachts now offer.
But in the present, I, like many other boat owners, have to make a choice. Budget is usually limited so there are a spectrum of boats available - from an 80s Rolls Royce equivalent, to a brand new Fiat 500 equivalent. Size, accommodation, convenience features, condition, equipment, intended usage, interior layout, sail controls ... these all come together and result in a purchase, and because we are all different, with differing tastes and requirements, we end up making different decisions. There is no one answer, and one persons ideal boat is another persons nightmare. It really is that simple. A friend in my neighbouring berth in Marina Veruda has completely rebuilt a HR41 to as new condition - it looks like it came out of the factory yesterday, but as much as I admire it, and the persistence and craftsmanship required to restore it, I couldn't live with it because the fundamental design doesn't work for me.
That's the way it is. Sailors are individuals and I think anyone new to sailing needs unbiased practical advice - I'm happy to accept that grounding a modern boat hard can result in serious damage, but it's not something you do on purpose, and getting blown onto a lee shore and wrecked worries me way more to be honest - and in that situation it's pot luck if the boat can be salvaged, regardless what it is - but an older one is more likely to be written off due to the intrinsic lower market value.
Please don't get too upset, but that is a textbook case of narcissistic projection if ever I saw one
What Is Narcissistic Projection & How to Respond
But I still don't want your boat. It would be bottom of my list. I do fancy that old RRNonsense, let's try an analogy ....
Rolls Royce from the 70s vs modern Rolls Royce ....
View attachment 182671View attachment 182673
...both quality cars, but the one on the left is dated and needs to be looked after by a car enthusiast, the one on the right is faster, quieter, more comfortable and overall simply better than it's predecessor - you might get the odd nutter claiming the 70s version is a better car, but that's nonsense.
Quality boats from the 70s vs modern equivalent (unfortunately Trintella went bust so they have no modern equivalent, Kraken will have to do.)
View attachment 182674View attachment 182675
...both quality boats, but the one on the left is dated and needs to be looked after by an enthusiast, the one on the right is faster, more comfortable, more practical, and overall simply more capable than the 70s design.
Given the choice of the two, I'd have the Kraken in a heartbeat if I had the budget, including over the boat I just bought. No-one would claim the Kraken isn't a quality boat would they? In the 70s I might even have bought a Trintella if I could have afforded it, as there was nothing available offering all the mod-cons and design features new yachts now offer.
But in the present, I, like many other boat owners, have to make a choice. Budget is usually limited so there are a spectrum of boats available - from an 80s Rolls Royce equivalent, to a brand new Fiat 500 equivalent. Size, accommodation, convenience features, condition, equipment, intended usage, interior layout, sail controls ... these all come together and result in a purchase, and because we are all different, with differing tastes and requirements, we end up making different decisions. There is no one answer, and one persons ideal boat is another persons nightmare. It really is that simple. A friend in my neighbouring berth in Marina Veruda has completely rebuilt a HR41 to as new condition - it looks like it came out of the factory yesterday, but as much as I admire it, and the persistence and craftsmanship required to restore it, I couldn't live with it because the fundamental design doesn't work for me.
That's the way it is. Sailors are individuals and I think anyone new to sailing needs unbiased practical advice - I'm happy to accept that grounding a modern boat hard can result in serious damage, but it's not something you do on purpose, and getting blown onto a lee shore and wrecked worries me way more to be honest - and in that situation it's pot luck if the boat can be salvaged, regardless what it is - but an older one is more likely to be written off due to the intrinsic lower market value.
Please don't get too upset, but that is a textbook case of narcissistic projection if ever I saw one
What Is Narcissistic Projection & How to Respond
Do you really think your boat is like a new RR
RunAgroundHard
Well-known member
I can't see anything from the video that would allow a viewer to say with certainty that the boat was level in the travel hoist. The owners state that the keel did not touch down evenly, hence the boat was not level.
I have discussed similar with marina travel hoist operators when an employer's racing boat was placed onshore. It was critical that the boat was suspended, supported and propped up in accordance with the OEM instructions before the load was released from the travel hoist. In later years there were dedicated cradles for certain racing yachts because setting down took so much time and effort.
The small chord keels, grid foundation, construction and design sensitivities have been well discussed in this forum, notably around the Cheeki Rafiki event and subsequent MAIB incident report. Whether this boats keel had previous damage or not, doesn't retract from the fact that load this type of keel wrongly and the margin of error between recovery without damage, and damaging the boat is very small, compared to similar keel designs that have wider chords.
Such a shame for the couple in question and maybe if the yard had not been so rushed, or had a better understanding, or the owners had information on how to shore up the boat without stressing the keel joint, the event would not have happened.
I have discussed similar with marina travel hoist operators when an employer's racing boat was placed onshore. It was critical that the boat was suspended, supported and propped up in accordance with the OEM instructions before the load was released from the travel hoist. In later years there were dedicated cradles for certain racing yachts because setting down took so much time and effort.
The small chord keels, grid foundation, construction and design sensitivities have been well discussed in this forum, notably around the Cheeki Rafiki event and subsequent MAIB incident report. Whether this boats keel had previous damage or not, doesn't retract from the fact that load this type of keel wrongly and the margin of error between recovery without damage, and damaging the boat is very small, compared to similar keel designs that have wider chords.
Such a shame for the couple in question and maybe if the yard had not been so rushed, or had a better understanding, or the owners had information on how to shore up the boat without stressing the keel joint, the event would not have happened.
rogerthebodger
Well-known member
But I still don't want your boat. It would be bottom of my list. I do fancy that old RR
Do you really think your boat is like a new RR
Also as an Engineer with a Degree in Mechanical Engineering from a UK University I also like tinkering with Engineering systems on my boats and classic British sports cars. I have an engineering workshop at home to allow me to machine and fabricate components for whatever I need
I relate with geem as I fitted out a boat that was a bear hull and superstructure to my personal requirements and I would not swap it for a newer factory built as the cost would be higher and not of the standard I would require
I do continue to tinker and maintain my boat as well as sing it a little.
It does irritate me when people with less experience try to tell what I should do as it my choice and if it's wrong. I am the one who has to live with it
Tranona
Well-known member
Where did he say it was? His modern comparison was his Bavaria against a Fiat 500 and your type of boat against a Kraken.Do you really think your boat is like a new RR
All this discussion does is confirm your approach is the minority one and thousands of people are very happy with their modern boats - indeed many have owned older boats and would not go back.
Tranona
Well-known member
A very good summary. Worth noting in addition that the boat is 14 years old and well used. No way of knowing what has happened in the past - it may have been badly handled, grounded, dropped etc before with no visible effects and this was the last straw. Looking at how much dismantling was required to inspect the grid doubt it was routine so there is no "before and after" comparison. As others have observed the damage seems severe for a one off incident.
WindyWindyWindy
Active member
Cheeki Rafiki had been repaired from previous grounding damage it wasn't quite "as designed" when it failed.
This one looks like a manufacturing defect or previous grounding damage to me. The boat must have been lifted before, so I'm guessing someone had crashed it.
Possibly that Orca attack. They didn't do an episode about the rudder repair.
steveeasy
Well-known member
No, it was a typical geem "let's bash everything designed after the mid 70s" thread ... you do have form.
I guess that's why you chose not to mention the plywood you could "scoop out with a spoon" on your foredeck, and instead said "we haven't seen any rotting ply bulkheads. All ply is hardwood Brunzeil ply. Arguably the best plywood in the world." ... and it's Bruynzeel for future reference.
I'm sure your boat has no vices whatsoever, and it is the strongest, most seaworthy boat ever to cross the pond - it's faster than anything else, more stable, and way better than anything built in the last 45 years ....
... it's great you are so passionate about your boat, but in reality, this is what you get if you look for a Trintella 44 today ...
https://www.boot24.com/boot/1977-trintella-44-ketch-9288991/
TRINTELLA 44'KETCH - Keppel Bay Marina
https://www.yachtworld.com/yacht/1976-trintella-44-9371158/
Trintella 44/45 for sale Greece, Trintella boats for sale, Trintella used boat sales, Trintella Sailing Yachts For Sale 1978 44 - Apollo Duck
... every one is guaranteed to be a project.
There is a reason they are similarly priced to a turn of the century Bavaria 40 Ocean ...... https://www.yachtworld.co.uk/yacht/2003-bavaria-40-ocean-9454866/
... the world has moved on, (and chain lockers or lazarettes don't drain into the bilges any more)
Had mine on its side sitting rather undignified on top of a rock yes a proper rock too. Hardly a scratch in comparison. Which one would one consider bomb proof!!
Steveeasy
doug748
Well-known member
I note a number of images where the boat is shown from both the beam and aft - they all look perfectly normal. The above oblique shot was taken as the boat was raised after the disaster, nothing adverse to see there either.
Here is what an earlier poster said about contacting this manufacturer for advice about hauling out:
"My questions to the builder, at a couple of email addresses have sadly gone unanswered...
I have not approached any dealers, since I have not found an actual Canter del Pardo/Grand Soleil dealer that looks like they have any interest in doing anything except the work themselves. In the past they seem reluctant to give any advice, only service the boat or sell me a very limited selection of parts for it. (Or a new one!) Honestly, not impressed much by that. But I likely just have not found that 'good one'."
An earlier model but it's handbook says nothing about loading the keel or drying out except mainly generalised advice.
Perhaps the new model should carry permanent, explicit warning, within the boat, saying it is unsuitable for drying out on the keel. I don't really think so. I think it is previous damage and / or marginal design and / or a manufacturing defect.
.
