What do you think of this one?

[Daydream believer]

Don’t besonegative!

On the plus side
Uhmm
Ohh
Errr
Bu..ger

 

[Metalicmike]

Quite a few boats lost their keels one of which is the Beneteau 40.7 with similar keel design. Moving the Ballast to the bottom of the keel is a great way to reduce displacement hence faster hulls but the loading on the hull is amplified and grounding catastrophic. How many are out there that have structural damage hidden from inspection. I would be very worried.

 

[srm]

Quite a few boats lost their keels one of which is the Beneteau 40.7 with similar keel design. Moving the Ballast to the bottom of the keel is a great way to reduce displacement hence faster hulls but the loading on the hull is amplified and grounding catastrophic. How many are out there that have structural damage hidden from inspection. I would be very worried.

I first saw boats like that as a child. I would take my toy yacht to the local boating pond. At weekends grown ups would bring their impressive racing models with tall masts, deep keels and wind vane steering. All were handled very carefully with fitted stands to hold them safely while out of the water and being rigged.

 

[Tranona]

Have not looked at the regulations for Class A, but having looked at the companionway washboard fittings on two large class A boats. As a result of these details I have doubts as to how much the regs can be trusted to produce a safe ocean going boat. Both boats had transparent washboards around 5mm thick, which are probably up to the job. My concern was the fastenings, a very light and shallow alloy channel that looked as if it was held in by four self tapping screws on each side. Even if machine screws with nuts on the other side the whole arrangement was flimsy. The sides of the campanionway were parallel smooth fibreglass. It would have been possible at the design stage to make a step in the side mouldings to support the washboards in the event of them being pushed forward by water pressure or an intruder. Left me wondering what was the rest of the boat like.

The Categories are largely determined by stability. The things you talk about would not be specifically different between categories.

 

[rogerthebodger]

Some years ago, a boat on way to Duban lot its keel which was a similar to the one shown and all crew was lost

The boat was found later, and the keel had ripped out and the boat capsized

 

[srm]

The Categories are largely determined by stability. The things you talk about would not be specifically different between categories.

So no, or only minimal, structural requirements and specs for watertight integrity??

 

[dunedin]

Quite a few boats lost their keels one of which is the Beneteau 40.7 with similar keel design. Moving the Ballast to the bottom of the keel is a great way to reduce displacement hence faster hulls but the loading on the hull is amplified and grounding catastrophic. How many are out there that have structural damage hidden from inspection. I would be very worried.

Here we go again, recycling perceptions and half truths. Yes one Ben 40.7 was tragically lost - mid Atlantic in terrible storm, allegedly after having damage to the keel.
Thousands of torpedo ballast keels have sailed across oceans very safely, just need to be properly designed, engineered and maintained.
Even swing keel versions now have a better track record of surviving the southern ocean than the traditional boats used in the Holden Globe Race.

Don’t cross the Atlantic on an aeroplane as have narrow wings and much just glued together.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

Hate to break up the annual meeting of the Manky Old Boat owners association, but there was something seriously wrong if the boat broke while hanging in the slings - either a manufacturing fault or a previous grounding the owners didn't know about.

As an alternative anecdote, a HR36 that I know of ran into rocks, the owner tried to avoid them and in doing so struck the skeg and rudder against the rocks. It tore the skeg from the hull and the boat needed to be craned out, the interior removed and the rear part of the hull had a new skeg re-laminated on. Just the same amount of work as a cracked grid in a production boat.

A 66ft Moody "Mustique" had its skeg hung rudder ripped off by an Orca and would have sunk if a helicopter hadn't delivered high capacity pumps to keep it afloat until it could be lifted out.

If keel/grid damage was really a major factor in yacht sinkings or claims, then modern boats would be priced accordingly by the insurance companies - but they're not.

Next please ...

 

[Daydream believer]

Here we go again, recycling perceptions and half truths. Yes one Ben 40.7 was tragically lost - mid Atlantic in terrible storm, allegedly after having damage to the keel.

Where did you get the "Terrible Storm " info from? Or are you adding to "Half truths" as well?

 

[Daydream believer]

Next please ...

Back in the 70s I sailed up the sea wall at Burnham, on a very HW, in my Stella & scattered some crowd. Slid back in & carried on racing.
Never even thought to look at the keel bolts.

 

[dunedin]

Where did you get the "Terrible Storm " info from? Or are you adding to "Half truths" as well?

Apologies, stand corrected on the apparent wind strength at the time of Cheeky Rafiki. But still an extremely exceptional case.

 

[Metalicmike]

Here we go again, recycling perceptions and half truths. Yes one Ben 40.7 was tragically lost - mid Atlantic in terrible storm, allegedly after having damage to the keel.
Thousands of torpedo ballast keels have sailed across oceans very safely, just need to be properly designed, engineered and maintained.
Even swing keel versions now have a better track record of surviving the southern ocean than the traditional boats used in the Holden Globe Race.

Don’t cross the Atlantic on an aeroplane as have narrow wings and much just glued together.

I don't dispute that many of this design travel thousands of miles without problems but when Yachting world release an article on this subject and I am sure I can find many more then people far more informed than me hold this view.

 

[Fire99]

I take quite a bit of interest in Keel design (yes I have also sailed sailing boats too) and my perception is that this keel design works within the confines of its intended loadings. I'm sure in 'normal' use most will work very well but they are very unforgiving if they are subjected to loads outside of that 'window' i.e. an uneven loading of the boat onto its keel, or hitting a submerged object out at sea. It's all a compromise but I can see why for many sailors they want something that can deal with 'unexpected' loads better when on ocean / offshore passages. Peace of mind does improve the whole sailing experience for me.

 

[Sea Change]

there was something seriously wrong if the boat broke while hanging in the slings

That's not what happened- the boat was sat down on the hard with the stern lower that the bow, placing too high a load on the aft end of the hull/keel joint.

 

[Bodach na mara]

Over the last 60 odd years I have seen quite a few boats hitting bricks. Sometimes heavily. I have hit a few myself. Nearly all of these incidents involved boats that belonged to that group that would be referred to as "older". And I have seen for myself that the damage caused by a grounding heavy enough to cause me to bang my head on a solid bit of the boat and draw blood (lots!) was minimal; some denting in the lead of the keel. I have never seen the sort of structural damage discussed in this thread. A further example can be found on YouTube if you search for the video of the Tobermory race made as a programme by the BBC. At the start of the second leg of the race, from Crinan, one boat grounds heavily on the Black Rock. A voice on the recording reveals that it is not the first time that this boat has run aground. Yet the yacht goes on to complete the race. When I saw it out of the water at the end of the season the only evidence of the collision was some missing antifouling from the keel and some depression in the cast steel where it had hit. I think that the rock came off worst.

 

[Poignard]

One of the many things I liked about my Twister was the encapsulated keel.

Inferior speed to a bolted on fin keel certainly, but I felt reassured that it was a strong construction that would be better able to withstand accidental [ok careless!] groundings, and mishandling in boatyards.

 

[srm]

I'm sure in 'normal' use most will work very well but they are very unforgiving if they are subjected to loads outside of that 'window' i.e. an uneven loading of the boat onto its keel, or hitting a submerged object out at sea.

Normal use for a boat designed for racing and normal use for a cruising boat can be quite different. The racing boat is more likely to be carefully pampered and its bottom cleaned regularly. If it does touch the bottom a conscientious owner will inspect for damage.

Certainly the normal way I use my cruising boats, going into interesting anchorages and amongst rocky places risks unintentional groundings. I have even managed to touch the bottom in Norwegian fjords a couple of times by sailing very close to the shore to make the most of a favourable slant beating out against the increasing sea breeze. Drying out alongside walls or piles for a scrub or prop clean etc or being lifted out in different places was also normal usage.

All boats are compromises and the normal demands of a cruising boat require a more robust underwater structure than an inshore round the buoys racer. However, racers tend to set the fashion, be it rule beating deck sweeping genoas with big overlaps, yawl mizzens for unrated sail area, or narrow keels that allow the boat to turn in its own length. As some of the earlier posts imply its a case of the owner selecting a suitable design for its intended use. From this perspective the fault lies with the owners of the vessel. They chose the boat for their intended usage and given its somewhat unusual design features should have been proactive in supervising the lift.

I was closely watching one of my boats being moved in a south coast of England yard. A passing owner told me to walk away and leave it to the guys. My reply "I am responsible for the safety of the boat". In practice I got on very well with the yard guys, they were professional so I did not need to intervene other than to ensure they could do their job as easily as possible, and they recognised that I knew what needed doing. More often I have hired a construction company crane and driver and its been my responsibility to direct and check the entire operation.

 

[Tranona]

Over the last 60 odd years I have seen quite a few boats hitting bricks. Sometimes heavily. I have hit a few myself. Nearly all of these incidents involved boats that belonged to that group that would be referred to as "older". And I have seen for myself that the damage caused by a grounding heavy enough to cause me to bang my head on a solid bit of the boat and draw blood (lots!) was minimal; some denting in the lead of the keel. I have never seen the sort of structural damage discussed in this thread. A further example can be found on YouTube if you search for the video of the Tobermory race made as a programme by the BBC. At the start of the second leg of the race, from Crinan, one boat grounds heavily on the Black Rock. A voice on the recording reveals that it is not the first time that this boat has run aground. Yet the yacht goes on to complete the race. When I saw it out of the water at the end of the season the only evidence of the collision was some missing antifouling from the keel and some depression in the cast steel where it had hit. I think that the rock came off worst.

Down our neck of the woods where racing fin keeled boats in shallow strong tidal waters is a popular pastimes we have seen plenty of examples of severe structural damage from groundings - not just modern boats but going back to the 1970s when bolt on fin keels started to appear in numbers.

It is inevitable with the type of high aspect ratio keel on the boat in question that the structure needs to absorb any abnormal loads and lowering it onto the aft part of the torpedo ballast bulb is abnormal as you can get.

 

[noelex]

Post deleted. Wrong thread

 

[Neeves]

Down our neck of the woods where racing fin keeled boats in shallow strong tidal waters is a popular pastimes we have seen plenty of examples of severe structural damage from groundings - not just modern boats but going back to the 1970s when bolt on fin keels started to appear in numbers.

It is inevitable with the type of high aspect ratio keel on the boat in question that the structure needs to absorb any abnormal loads and lowering it onto the aft part of the torpedo ballast bulb is abnormal as you can get.

One might assume, incorrectly as it turns out, that travel hoist operators are trained in the use of the equipment and as these hoists are used regularly to lift yachts with slender keels the care needed should be both well known and well documented. One might also assume that yards operating such kit are fully insured.

If the keel in question was outside the experience of the operator or yard, as professionals, they should have put the yacht back in the water as soon as they realised what they were handling. Its not as if they would not notice the keel.

Yards are keen to ensure their client's are fully insured, why not the yard (you should not need to ask).

Jonathan