What do you think of this one?

[Neeves]

It depends on the price of the yacht but the slightly extreme keel, for cruising, would not be my concern. But this sort of keel is commonly accompanied by tight accomodation and a very tender rig. It would be the tender rig that I would worry about - more than the keel. The keel you can 'protect', most depth sounders allow you to set at least one and sometimes two alarms, the yacht was presumably built to accomodate the keel and as long as the keel and its support structure has not been compromised - seller integrity and signs of repairs (its really difficult to hide repairs) - I'd be happy, sort of.

Drawing lots of water restricts access to some cruising grounds and means you might have to anchor too far off shore - so depends on what cruising means to the potential owner.

When we book in to a boat yard we need to fill out a form defining the yacht, length, weight, beam, draft, mast height etc. More detail is usually demanded, bulkhead positions etc. There seems little point in asking these questions if the demands are not then analysed - this yacht must have a deep, narrow fin keel with a big bulb - my sympathy is with the owners of the yacht.

The rig is different - totally different to a cruising rig, usually designed round a large crew - you would get used to it, if you know you need to get used to it.

I cannot knock the buyers choice, if they accept the cramped accomodation (easier when you are young), the tender rig and the restrictions on depth of water - when all are offset by a 'low' price. Most of us started sailing, cruising, in cheap cramped yachts (without depth sounders). The second hand market has changed - even now I'd look at a, cheap, performance yacht - I like sailing (cruising) fast, short handed.

We are looking at 'folding' trimarans - so we might put, my wife's, money where my mouth is.


Its easy to be critical when your wallet is bulging (as a retiree money is finite)..

Jonathan

 

[Baggywrinkle]

That's not what happened- the boat was sat down on the hard with the stern lower that the bow, placing too high a load on the aft end of the hull/keel joint.

Missed that and watched the video a couple of times ... my bad. That would do it on this particular boat. Looks like the grid was bonded rather than laminated to the hull and it seems like the the bonding gave way. Give it a few years and the technology will improve until bonding is stronger and more flexible making failure less likely. May eventually end up being better than laminating.

On the plus side, the repair will take a few months but will almost certainly result in the grid being laminated to the hull as the grid can't be re-bonded effectively ... so it will be improved after the repairs.

This video is a good explanation, and there are also videos in the series showing the repairs from start to finish.

My two take-aways are - get an AWB with a laminated grid - no guarantee but seems to fare better than just bonding, and the second - understand the risks of putting your boat in charter.

... at the end of the day, you pay your money and take your choice. Those who can't afford a new Amel, a Discovery or equivalent have the choice of new or old. Each choice is simply a different set of problems. New means everything works, it doesn't smell, leak, and is designed for comfortable living, old means hidden issues, re-fits, rot, leaks etc. My father had a boat from the 70s which he sold a few years ago - built like a tank - but it was out of comission for half a year having the hull ground back to the matting due to osmosis, Fair Isle ... a YouTube favourite, also built like a tank had the mast stepped on the water tank with no strengthening and had to be lifted and fixed, and YouTube is full of videos of rotting balsa cores, encapsulaed keels splitting open due to rusting ballast, rotting interior plywood, bulkheads detaching from the hull etc. etc. etc.... look at what Mads had to do to his Warrior on Sail Life. My personal choice was to go for newish (this century) because the boat will undoubtedly take me wherever I want to go, and I'll be comfortable when I get there - for me there are certain aspects of modern designs that are so desirable I will not consider anything "traditional". If you don't have unlimited funds, you have to compromise and that usually boils down to newer, good condition or an older, more worn "blue water boat" from 40 years ago - which undoubtedly comes with its own set of compromises and problems. In 40 years time old farts will probably be arguing over the merits of foils over fin keels ... or the ride comfort of scow bows.

Interior grids and fin keels are here to stay, like it or not, they have already killed the manufacturers or heavily built but affordable cruisers and they're not coming back.

 

[AndyDavies]

Quite a few boats lost their keels one of which is the Beneteau 40.7 with similar keel design. Moving the Ballast to the bottom of the keel is a great way to reduce displacement hence faster hulls but the loading on the hull is amplified and grounding catastrophic. How many are out there that have structural damage hidden from inspection. I would be very worried.

Grand Soleil from 2010 have internal steel frames to bear keel and mast loads. They are much stronger than Beneteau. There's a video of GS 43 hitting the Varvassi at 8knts during the RTIR. It was sailed into Lymington under its own power and has subsequently crossed the Atlantic at least once.

 

[steveeasy]

Shame no footage seams to exist of the boat in the slings at an angle and it being placed on the keel. Sounds a wee bit negligent if this happened. A surveyor will hopefully determine if previous damage had occured.
Not an easy one to resolve.

Steveeasy

 

[geem]

Missed that and watched the video a couple of times ... my bad. That would do it on this particular boat. Looks like the grid was bonded rather than laminated to the hull and it seems like the the bonding gave way. Give it a few years and the technology will improve until bonding is stronger and more flexible making failure less likely. May eventually end up being better than laminating.

On the plus side, the repair will take a few months but will almost certainly result in the grid being laminated to the hull as the grid can't be re-bonded effectively ... so it will be improved after the repairs.

This video is a good explanation, and there are also videos in the series showing the repairs from start to finish.

My two take-aways are - get an AWB with a laminated grid - no guarantee but seems to fare better than just bonding, and the second - understand the risks of putting your boat in charter.

... at the end of the day, you pay your money and take your choice. Those who can't afford a new Amel, a Discovery or equivalent have the choice of new or old. Each choice is simply a different set of problems. New means everything works, it doesn't smell, leak, and is designed for comfortable living, old means hidden issues, re-fits, rot, leaks etc. My father had a boat from the 70s which he sold a few years ago - built like a tank - but it was out of comission for half a year having the hull ground back to the matting due to osmosis, Fair Isle ... a YouTube favourite, also built like a tank had the mast stepped on the water tank with no strengthening and had to be lifted and fixed, and YouTube is full of videos of rotting balsa cores, encapsulaed keels splitting open due to rusting ballast, rotting interior plywood, bulkheads detaching from the hull etc. etc. etc.... look at what Mads had to do to his Warrior on Sail Life. My personal choice was to go for newish (this century) because the boat will undoubtedly take me wherever I want to go, and I'll be comfortable when I get there - for me there are certain aspects of modern designs that are so desirable I will not consider anything "traditional". If you don't have unlimited funds, you have to compromise and that usually boils down to newer, good condition or an older, more worn "blue water boat" from 40 years ago - which undoubtedly comes with its own set of compromises and problems. In 40 years time old farts will probably be arguing over the merits of foils over fin keels ... or the ride comfort of scow bows.

Interior grids and fin keels are here to stay, like it or not, they have already killed the manufacturers or heavily built but affordable cruisers and they're not coming back.

I understand your decision to go for a new boat, but it's not for me. Funds to buy new were never the problem. I could go out tomorrow and buy a new 44ft boat but there is nothing that appeals to me in the current crop of production boats.
You picked a few things that put you off old boats. Balsa core. We don't have that. We went for a boat with Airex core, not by accident. Rusting keel in encapsulated core. Not an issue. We went for an encapsulated lead keel. With over 40,000nm on the boat so far in our ownership, we haven't seen any rotting ply bulkheads. All ply is hardwood Brunzeil ply. Arguably the best plywood in the world.
We recently sailed from the Caribean to the UK via the Azores and Ireland and we experienced no issue with the boat other than a broken spade connector on a relay and a failed Raymarine St to N2k interface cable. Each leg of the trip had winds well above 30kts but nothing on the boat broke.
We have just removed the rudder for the first time since the boat was built, 44 years ago. We wanted to inspect it before we head off again next year.
The 3 bronze bearings are all good. Although I will be adding a grease point to the top bearing to make lubrication easier. How many modern boats need rudders off regularly.
The reality of a quality older boat is that they are built to last. Is there an equivelent modern boat built to last? You don't have to choose one that was badly built and poorly maintained. There are lots of older boats in great shape that have had money thrown at them over their lifetime by fastidious owners. I actually enjoy maintaining and improving the boat. I know this is not everybody's idea of fun but I retired at 50. As an engineer, I enjoy doing engineering stuff.
This winter we are doubling our lithium battery bank capacity, adding more solar, going full electric cooking and removing the gas system entirely.
I also need to do some maintenance work on the 17 year old engine. Refurb the starter motor, replace some hydraulic pipes on the gearbox and fit new breakers in the electrical distribution panel. I have had the mast tangs off yesterday for inspection and all looks good, but I will die test them before refitting just to make sure. What else will I do over the winter?
This isn't a AWB vs MAB thing. It's just what suits different people. The boatyard we are currently in is filled with people working on boats. Some seem to enjoy the work more than the sailing

 

[Metalicmike]

I understand your decision to go for a new boat, but it's not for me. Funds to buy new were never the problem. I could go out tomorrow and buy a new 44ft boat but there is nothing that appeals to me in the current crop of production boats.
You picked a few things that put you off old boats. Balsa core. We don't have that. We went for a boat with Airex core, not by accident. Rusting keel in encapsulated core. Not an issue. We went for an encapsulated lead keel. With over 40,000nm on the boat so far in our ownership, we haven't seen any rotting ply bulkheads. All ply is hardwood Brunzeil ply. Arguably the best plywood in the world.
We recently sailed from the Caribean to the UK via the Azores and Ireland and we experienced no issue with the boat other than a broken spade connector on a relay and a failed Raymarine St to N2k interface cable. Each leg of the trip had winds well above 30kts but nothing on the boat broke.
We have just removed the rudder for the first time since the boat was built, 44 years ago. We wanted to inspect it before we head off again next year.
The 3 bronze bearings are all good. Although I will be adding a grease point to the top bearing to make lubrication easier. How many modern boats need rudders off regularly.
The reality of a quality older boat is that they are built to last. Is there an equivelent modern boat built to last? You don't have to choose one that was badly built and poorly maintained. There are lots of older boats in great shape that have had money thrown at them over their lifetime by fastidious owners. I actually enjoy maintaining and improving the boat. I know this is not everybody's idea of fun but I retired at 50. As an engineer, I enjoy doing engineering stuff.
This winter we are doubling our lithium battery bank capacity, adding more solar, going full electric cooking and removing the gas system entirely.
I also need to do some maintenance work on the 17 year old engine. Refurb the starter motor, replace some hydraulic pipes on the gearbox and fit new breakers in the electrical distribution panel. I have had the mast tangs off yesterday for inspection and all looks good, but I will die test them before refitting just to make sure. What else will I do over the winter?
This isn't a AWB vs MAB thing. It's just what suits different people. The boatyard we are currently in is filled with people working on boats. Some seem to enjoy the work more than the sailing

A true engineer.

 

[doug748]

There is no evidence in the video that the yard did anything unusual, quite the opposite. The keel was rested on the flat for pressure washing and the cradle appears perfectly adequate and well constructed, the ground is flat, the yard is tidy.






The idea that you could expect to damage a boat of that type by resting it on the end of the torpedo keel is also fanciful. A couple of common house bricks under the tip should only cant the boat forward or back till it balanced - not destroy the structure.
To design it otherwise would mean a warning and ban of ever drying out alongside a harbour wall, for example.

As mentioned earlier, dropping the boat is another matter, there is no suggestion that this happened.

.

 

[dunedin]

It depends on the price of the yacht but the slightly extreme keel, for cruising, would not be my concern. But this sort of keel is commonly accompanied by tight accomodation and a very tender rig. It would be the tender rig that I would worry about - more than the keel. The keel you can 'protect', most depth sounders allow you to set at least one and sometimes two alarms, the yacht was presumably built to accomodate the keel and as long as the keel and its support structure has not been compromised - seller integrity and signs of repairs (its really difficult to hide repairs) - I'd be happy, sort of.

Drawing lots of water restricts access to some cruising grounds and means you might have to anchor too far off shore - so depends on what cruising means to the potential owner.

When we book in to a boat yard we need to fill out a form defining the yacht, length, weight, beam, draft, mast height etc. More detail is usually demanded, bulkhead positions etc. There seems little point in asking these questions if the demands are not then analysed - this yacht must have a deep, narrow fin keel with a big bulb - my sympathy is with the owners of the yacht.

The rig is different - totally different to a cruising rig, usually designed round a large crew - you would get used to it, if you know you need to get used to it.

I cannot knock the buyers choice, if they accept the cramped accomodation (easier when you are young), the tender rig and the restrictions on depth of water - when all are offset by a 'low' price. Most of us started sailing, cruising, in cheap cramped yachts (without depth sounders). The second hand market has changed - even now I'd look at a, cheap, performance yacht - I like sailing (cruising) fast, short handed.

We are looking at 'folding' trimarans - so we might put, my wife's, money where my mouth is.


Its easy to be critical when your wallet is bulging (as a retiree money is finite)..

Jonathan

More huge generalisations without basis in fact

 

[Neeves]

More huge generalisations without basis in fact

Your point is? your post defines nothing

Its a forum, get used to it.

We know too little about many questions on threads, or even videos. People when they post a thread give few details and seldom even a picture - people can only answer, or comment, with generalisations.

If we are only able to answer with absolute precision and certainty - the forum would be very short.

If we had precision threads could be answered with one post.

Jonathan

 

[dunedin]

Your point is? your post defines nothing

Its a forum, get used to it.

We know too little about many questions on threads, or even videos. People when they post a thread give few details and seldom even a picture - people can only answer, or comment, with generalisations.

If we are only able to answer with absolute precision and certainty - the forum would be very short.

If we had precision threads could be answered with one post.

Jonathan

Your assertion that "this sort of keel is commonly accompanied by tight accomodation and a very tender rig" is a huge leap and assumption with no evidence given. Indeed, how familiar are you with modern quality Europen yachts.
Few accuse modern boats of "tight accommodation". Modern beam hulls often associated with such keels generally make much more generous
and spacious accommodation than traditional boats.
And boats engineered for torpedo ballast keel often have very strongly engineered rigs. Some like XY, Arcona, Salona have metal steel structures bracing keel mounts, mast heel and rig stays.

 

[doug748]

Your assertion that "this sort of keel is commonly accompanied by tight accomodation and a very tender rig" is a huge leap and assumption with no evidence given. Indeed, how familiar are you with modern quality Europen yachts.
Few accuse modern boats of "tight accommodation". Modern beam hulls often associated with such keels generally make much more generous
and spacious accommodation than traditional boats.
And boats engineered for torpedo ballast keel often have very strongly engineered rigs. Some like XY, Arcona, Salona have metal steel structures bracing keel mounts, mast heel and rig stays.

Someone had to do it.


.

 

[Daydream believer]

Your assertion that "this sort of keel is commonly accompanied by tight accomodation and a very tender rig" is a huge leap and assumption with no evidence given. Indeed, how familiar are you with modern quality Europen yachts.
Few accuse modern boats of "tight accommodation". Modern beam hulls often associated with such keels generally make much more generous
and spacious accommodation than traditional boats.
And boats engineered for torpedo ballast keel often have very strongly engineered rigs. Some like XY, Arcona, Salona have metal steel structures bracing keel mounts, mast heel and rig stays.

In 2006 I was in Ijmuiden & saw a 45-50 ft Salona with a canvas sheet around the keel. I had a sneek look under & the keel comprised a lead bulb attached to a cast iron fin. There had clearly been a collision as the bulb had a 2 inch gap from the fin exposing some of the bolts. The cast iron part seemed intact with no cracking visible at the hull joint. Obviously I could not look inside. But it must have been a fair hit at some speed for the damage sustained

 

[Neeves]

Your assertion that "this sort of keel is commonly accompanied by tight accomodation and a very tender rig" is a huge leap and assumption with no evidence given. Indeed, how familiar are you with modern quality Europen yachts.
Few accuse modern boats of "tight accommodation". Modern beam hulls often associated with such keels generally make much more generous
and spacious accommodation than traditional boats.
And boats engineered for torpedo ballast keel often have very strongly engineered rigs. Some like XY, Arcona, Salona have metal steel structures bracing keel mounts, mast heel and rig stays.

Well here are 2, twitchy masts, beamy, not much headroom, slender keels with big bulbs.


We were there doing our own AF and the yard had a complete cross section of vessels: Navy landing craft, historic long keelers, a large tri, us - and a large number of yachts with twitchy masts, Patrice's mast is in the forground and her slender keel was off having some work done.

How many pictures would suffice? I have a rather large number of pictures - there were more twitchy keels than anything else.

I might add - if you think only Europeans build performance yachts with slender keels you really need to get out more.

Jonathan

 

[Neeves]

Your assertion that "this sort of keel is commonly accompanied by tight accomodation and a very tender rig" is a huge leap and assumption with no evidence given. Indeed, how familiar are you with modern quality Europen yachts.
Few accuse modern boats of "tight accommodation". Modern beam hulls often associated with such keels generally make much more generous
and spacious accommodation than traditional boats.
And boats engineered for torpedo ballast keel often have very strongly engineered rigs. Some like XY, Arcona, Salona have metal steel structures bracing keel mounts, mast heel and rig stays.

Well here are 2, twitchy masts, beamy, not much headroom, slender keels with big bulbs.
View attachment 182618

We were there doing our own AF and the yard had a complete cross section of vessels: Navy landing craft, historic long keelers, a large tri, us - and a large number of yachts with twitchy masts, Patrice's mast is in the forground and slender keels. How many pictures would suffice?

I'm not too sure why you think only Europeans build yachts with slim keels, I suspect you need to get out more.

https://mcconaghyboats.com/yachts/race-boats/

Jonathan

 

[Neeves]

In 2006 I was in Ijmuiden & saw a 45-50 ft Salona with a canvas sheet around the keel. I had a sneek look under & the keel comprised a lead bulb attached to a cast iron fin. There had clearly been a collision as the bulb had a 2 inch gap from the fin exposing some of the bolts. The cast iron part seemed intact with no cracking visible at the hull joint. Obviously I could not look inside. But it must have been a fair hit at some speed for the damage sustained

Here the fin is often machined from a slab of high tensile steel, for example Wild Oates 11 whose steel was supplied by Bisalloy (of Rocna fame who made the shank of their anchor from Bis 80)

Jonathan

 

[oldbloke]

Gran Soleils are at the racier end of the cruiser racer spectrum. They have long thin keels for a reason, and it's not because that's a cheap way of doing it. It's a bit like buying a Porsche 911 and complaining it's no good on dirt tracks.
AWBs are well designed and built for what they are designed and built for. If you want to do something else accept the compromise or put your hand in your pocket and get something built for the job

 

[srm]

Regardless of keel design the owner is responsible for their boat, even when they get a yard or others to move it. Its not clear from the video that the boat was at sufficient angle in the slings to put an unfair load on the keel. Instead of concentrating on preparing a social media post the owner should have been paying critical attention to his boat. Someone else could have played with the camera. Looking from different angles may well have alerted him to the problem and had it rectified before putting the boat on the ground.
I refused a lift out with a harbour crane when I saw that one of the slings was frayed; driver tried to reassure me that it was safe, and it may well have been, but my boat - my decision. After I still refused the crane driver and his buddy then set off in their truck and borrowed another set of slings in good condition.

 

[Sandy]

Quite a few boats lost their keels one of which is the Beneteau 40.7 with similar keel design. Moving the Ballast to the bottom of the keel is a great way to reduce displacement hence faster hulls but the loading on the hull is amplified and grounding catastrophic. How many are out there that have structural damage hidden from inspection. I would be very worried.

Grumpy old Safety Engineer here. Can you quantify your statement, 'Quite a few boats'?

How do you get to catastrophic? Nobody was killed in the making of this YouTube video. Very few have been killed by keels falling off boats of any make and model.

I rather like the understatement of, 'Houston, we have a problem' ( Jack Swigert command module pilot Apollo 13) rather that the angst that couple showed. Something that is fixable with the right skills.

 

[penberth3]

Regardless of keel design the owner is responsible for their boat, even when they get a yard or others to move it.....

Sorry, I don't agree with that.

 

[Sea Change]

Its not clear from the video that the boat was at sufficient angle in the slings to put an unfair load on the keel. Instead of concentrating on preparing a social media post the owner should have been paying critical attention to his boat.

They specifically point out on the video that they didn't capture the critical moment where the boat was damaged, because they were too busy attending to the lift.