UK Sailors And Expats In The EU - Run Up To Friday 29th March 2019 & Beyond?

[Tony Cross]

Re: France - Burgundy - British Ambassador

Genuine question, was the ambassador saying if there is any kind of deal that freedom of movement for EU/UK citizens would be the same as it was before we left

That question wasn't asked. The meetings are really for those already resident here.

...Theresa May has stated unequivocally, on more than one occasion, that whatever the outcome of Brexit, the status and privileges of EU and UK expats in either area, who are legally registered in that country will not change.

The ambassador was careful to qualify that by saying 'if there is a deal'. She did make the point that if the UK leaves with no-deal the above is not guaranteed (but will be the most likely outcome). Again, she was talking about, and to, UK citizens already resident long-term in Greece,

 

[macd]

Re: France - Burgundy - British Ambassador

This thread has sought to avoid speculation and concentrate on fact.

Unfortunately, facts are few and far between but it is my understanding that Theresa May has stated unequivocally, on more than one occasion, that whatever the outcome of Brexit, the status and privileges of EU and UK expats in either area, who are legally registered in that country will not change .

The question I answered was about freedom of movement, not residence.

May and others have said all sorts of things, some of them true, some partially so and some not very. The fact remains that under both the divorce and exit agreements, the status of British individuals in the EU27 is very much expected to change: at some stage FOM will end, for all UK nationals whether legally resident or not. Having licence to live in Portugal or anywhere else is not freedom of movement. A politician might describe that as "no change", but I wouldn't.

 

[Mistroma]

Re: France - Burgundy - British Ambassador

The question I answered was about freedom of movement, not residence.

May and others have said all sorts of things, some of them true, some partially so and some not very. The fact remains that under both the divorce and exit agreements, the status of British individuals in the EU27 is very much expected to change: at some stage FOM will end, for all UK nationals whether resident or not. Having licence to live in Portugal or anywhere else is not freedom of movement.

Yes, that's the big issue for me. I might be in Greece for 3-7 months or move to Italy then France for a bit. Residence permit for Greece probably wouldn't help much if I was there for 100 days before going to Italy for another 100 days. It doesn't help much that I also travel around outside UK in winter, I guess that also impacts my 90 days in 180 days if visiting Sweden, France, Spain etc.

 

[Graham376]

Re: France - Burgundy - British Ambassador

Yes, that's the big issue for me. I might be in Greece for 3-7 months or move to Italy then France for a bit. Residence permit for Greece probably wouldn't help much if I was there for 100 days before going to Italy for another 100 days. It doesn't help much that I also travel around outside UK in winter, I guess that also impacts my 90 days in 180 days if visiting Sweden, France, Spain etc.

All speculation of course, no-one knows what's going to happen, we'll just have to wait and see. If the time spent in our EU country of residence - Greece, Portugal, etc. counts as time spent in the EU, therefore already having used up our 90 days by staying there for extended period, then we do have a problem when moving elsewhere. As things stand at the moment, it's anyone's guess when the mess will be sorted out.

 

[nortada]

Re: France - Burgundy - British Ambassador

The question I answered was about freedom of movement, not residence.

May and others have said all sorts of things, some of them true, some partially so and some not very. The fact remains that under both the divorce and exit agreements, the status of British individuals in the EU27 is very much expected to change: at some stage FOM will end, for all UK nationals whether legally resident or not. Having licence to live in Portugal or anywhere else is not freedom of movement. A politician might describe that as "no change", but I wouldn't.

Sorry Mac, my mistake

My response was all about registration/residence in single EU country post Brexit.

Think FoM is a separate issue, where Schengen could rear it’s head.:ambivalence:

 

[Tony Cross]

Re: France - Burgundy - British Ambassador

Yes, that's the big issue for me. I might be in Greece for 3-7 months or move to Italy then France for a bit. Residence permit for Greece probably wouldn't help much if I was there for 100 days before going to Italy for another 100 days. It doesn't help much that I also travel around outside UK in winter, I guess that also impacts my 90 days in 180 days if visiting Sweden, France, Spain etc.

I don't believe the EU rules prevent you being registered in more than one country? Perhaps registering in every country you plan to spend more than 90 days in would be worthwhile?

 

[nortada]

Re: France - Burgundy - British Ambassador

Yes, that's the big issue for me. I might be in Greece for 3-7 months or move to Italy then France for a bit. Residence permit for Greece probably wouldn't help much if I was there for 100 days before going to Italy for another 100 days. It doesn't help much that I also travel around outside UK in winter, I guess that also impacts my 90 days in 180 days if visiting Sweden, France, Spain etc.

I don't believe the EU rules prevent you being registered in more than one country? Perhaps registering in every country you plan to spend more than 90 days in would be worthwhile?

Register in a number of countries?

Sounds a good idea but not sure it would fly as I suspect countries may object to a serial registrant - if they ever found out.

Has anybody already attempted this ploy? I am aware of a number of sailors who have multiple registrations but these have been over a number of years when they were 'resident' in that country - and it has yet to run out.

Mistroma, I (and I suspect many others) would be very interested to hear how you get on. Especially as it is in accord with my view that to do something is nearly always better than doing nothing.

Wonder if you can register in EU countries embassies in the UK?

Best of luck with your venture.

 

[Tony Cross]

Re: France - Burgundy - British Ambassador

Register in a number of countries?

Sounds a good idea but not sure it would fly as I suspect countries may object to a serial registrant - if they ever found out.

Has anybody already attempted this ploy? I am aware of a number of sailors who have multiple registrations but these have been over a number of years when they were 'resident' in that country - and it has yet to run out.

Why would it be a problem? AFAIK the point of registering after 90 days is because EU countries have a right to know who is living there longer than 90 days. It's perfectly possible to spend more than 90 days in four different EU countries, if you have multiple homes for example, so under the EU rules you must register in each of them....

Wonder if you can register in EU countries embassies in the UK?

I would suspect not. In Greece you must go to your local tourist police office and I think it's pretty similar in most other EU countries as well?

 

[nortada]

Re: France - Burgundy - British Ambassador

Register in a number of countries?

Sounds a good idea but not sure it would fly as I suspect countries may object to a serial registrant - if they ever found out.

Has anybody already attempted this ploy? I am aware of a number of sailors who have multiple registrations but these have been over a number of years when they were 'resident' in that country - and it has yet to run out.

Mistroma, I (and I suspect many others) would be very interested to hear how you get on. Especially as it is in accord with my view that to do something is nearly always better than doing nothing.

Wonder if you can register in EU countries embassies in the UK?

Best of luck with your venture.

Why would it be a problem? AFAIK the point of registering after 90 days is because EU countries have a right to know who is living there longer than 90 days. It's perfectly possible to spend more than 90 days in four different EU countries, if you have multiple homes for example, so under the EU rules you must register in each of them....

Embassies? (for clarity, my addition N).

I would suspect not. In Greece you must go to your local tourist police office and I think it's pretty similar in most other EU countries as well?

To register the authorities require an address and a place to send mail. Some will accept a marina mooring meets this criteria but as you observe in your last sentence, "In Greece you must go to your local tourist police office and I think it's pretty similar in most other EU countries as well?"

True but a bit difficult if neither you nor your boat are resident in that country?

As I pointed out, those with multiple registrations have gained these over the years as they have wintered in different countries - unless the transition period is agreed, bit late in the day for this ploy.

 

[Tony Cross]

Re: France - Burgundy - British Ambassador

As I pointed out, those with multiple registrations have gained these over the years as they have wintered in different countries - unless the transition period is agreed, bit late in the day for this ploy.

Fair enough, but it's not a ploy - its a legal requirement.

 

[greeny]

Re: France - Burgundy - British Ambassador

Just a thought for individuals registering here in Portugal and elsewhere which is a legal requirement if you genuinely live here.
Some 3/4 years ago the owners of holiday let property were told to register and meet the the requirements of the AL (holiday let registration system). That database along with other digital footprints was then used by the finance dept. 2 years later to trace rental properties and demand tax returns from owners. How far reaching or successful it was I don't know but it caused a lot of concern among the expat renters here in the Algarve.
If a person registers as resident here in the Algarve, which means you are living here full time, how long before the finances are chasing people down for tax returns on income using this information. I don't know the intricacies of the EU and UK tax systems/laws but maybe one of our more educated members could comment on this possibility?
Out of the frying pan into the fire maybe?

 

[Graham376]

Re: France - Burgundy - British Ambassador

Whether you get chased or not I think depends on type and location of property and whether it's your main home. I have heard of people with properties suitable for holiday accommodation in the Algarve having to prove they didn't rent it out. Our property is in a residential suburb near Lisbon, not tourist area and no problems so far.

Some info on property taxes here - https://www.blevinsfranks.com/news/blevinsfranks/article/property-tax-in-portugal

and here - https://allfinancematters.com/2017/...f-you-want-to-rent-your-property-to-tourists/

 

[Besonders]

Re: France - Burgundy - British Ambassador

Just a thought for individuals registering here in Portugal and elsewhere which is a legal requirement if you genuinely live here.
Some 3/4 years ago the owners of holiday let property were told to register and meet the the requirements of the AL (holiday let registration system). That database along with other digital footprints was then used by the finance dept. 2 years later to trace rental properties and demand tax returns from owners. How far reaching or successful it was I don't know but it caused a lot of concern among the expat renters here in the Algarve.
If a person registers as resident here in the Algarve, which means you are living here full time, how long before the finances are chasing people down for tax returns on income using this information. I don't know the intricacies of the EU and UK tax systems/laws but maybe one of our more educated members could comment on this possibility?
Out of the frying pan into the fire maybe?

+1 For those thoughts, anybody thinking of residency should carefully consider the potential tax implications and no doubt seek professional advice. I dont know about Portugal but Tax on income in Greece can be significantly higher than in the UK. Greece like the UK is a party to the double taxation treaty and therefore can communicate with the UK tax authorities regarding an individuals income. I am in the fortunate position that my income is derived from a Civil Service pension and the general written treaty rule is that Government employee pensions remain taxable in the country of issue.

 

[macd]

Re: France - Burgundy - British Ambassador

the general written treaty rule is that Government employee pensions remain taxable in the country of issue.

You are right that "Government pensions" are usually dealt with in that way, but certainly not always. In fact there are very few "general rules" amongst double taxation treaties, of which the UK has well over 100. This gov.uk page has a summary of all of them: https://assets.publishing.service.g...ent_data/file/710099/DT_Digest_April_2018.pdf

Equally, the definition of "government pension" is far from predictable. In fact it's laughably inconsistent, as can be seen here:
https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/international-manual/intm343040

It's also worth bearing in mind that if a "reserved" income such as you describe would be taxed in the UK at, say, 25%, but the same type of income would be taxed in the new country at 35%, then 35% may be due: 25% to the UK exchequer, 10% to the new country's.

State retirement pension, on the other hand, is usually taxed in the country of residence.

Oh, happy days...

 

[Tony Cross]

Re: France - Burgundy - British Ambassador

Just a thought for individuals registering here in Portugal and elsewhere which is a legal requirement if you genuinely live here.
Some 3/4 years ago the owners of holiday let property were told to register and meet the the requirements of the AL (holiday let registration system). That database along with other digital footprints was then used by the finance dept. 2 years later to trace rental properties and demand tax returns from owners. How far reaching or successful it was I don't know but it caused a lot of concern among the expat renters here in the Algarve.
If a person registers as resident here in the Algarve, which means you are living here full time, how long before the finances are chasing people down for tax returns on income using this information. I don't know the intricacies of the EU and UK tax systems/laws but maybe one of our more educated members could comment on this possibility?
Out of the frying pan into the fire maybe?

Whether you get chased or not I think depends on type and location of property and whether it's your main home. I have heard of people with properties suitable for holiday accommodation in the Algarve having to prove they didn't rent it out. Our property is in a residential suburb near Lisbon, not tourist area and no problems so far.

Some info on property taxes here - https://www.blevinsfranks.com/news/blevinsfranks/article/property-tax-in-portugal

and here - https://allfinancematters.com/2017/...f-you-want-to-rent-your-property-to-tourists/

+1 For those thoughts, anybody thinking of residency should carefully consider the potential tax implications and no doubt seek professional advice. I dont know about Portugal but Tax on income in Greece can be significantly higher than in the UK. Greece like the UK is a party to the double taxation treaty and therefore can communicate with the UK tax authorities regarding an individuals income. I am in the fortunate position that my income is derived from a Civil Service pension and the general written treaty rule is that Government employee pensions remain taxable in the country of issue.

I'm no tax expert but I do know that if you are resident in another EU country for more than 183 days you are automatically tax-resident there. In Greece that means that you must get a tax number and that requires you to file a yearly Greek tax return.

The ambassador was asked about tax implications in the recent meeting, I have no idea on her qualifications but she was absolutely adamant that tax is paid in the country where the income arises. In our case for example, all our income arises in the UK, and is taxed there, and we have no taxable assets in Greece - we rent our apartment, we no longer have a boat, and we don't own the car we drive around. Our accountant here is quite happy to file Greek tax returns showing zero tax to pay in Greece.

Of course, if you do have taxable assets or an income in your country of residence then it's more complex.

 

[st599]

I note the RYA website is now warning that there's a good chance that more Eurosceptic members may block visa free travel for EU nationals to the UK, which in turn would mean no visa free travel for UK to EU.

 

[macd]

Re: France - Burgundy - British Ambassador

1. I'm no tax expert but I do know that if you are resident in another EU country for more than 183 days you are automatically tax-resident there. In Greece that means that you must get a tax number and that requires you to file a yearly Greek tax return.

2. The ambassador was asked about tax implications in the recent meeting, I have no idea on her qualifications but she was absolutely adamant that tax is paid in the country where the income arises.

1. The "183 day rule" is often stated, not least in official government advise. It's a gross simplification -- which has the benefit of simplicity if not of total accuracy. Any accountant worth their salt will trash it.

The same "rule" is often summoned for matters other than fiscal. It used to be a stated requirement for issues as diverse as eligibility for SSR registration and for UK NHS entitlement. In both cases, the more proper (but harder to define) test of "normally resident" or "ordinarily resident" is now used. Check out the SSR website.

2. The ambassador was talking utter poppycock. There is no such general rule. Check out the link to double taxation treaties I gave in post #474.

By way of a P.S. to point 2, both the UK and Italian governments (and many others) claim the right to tax their residents' "total world-wide income". This is clearly incompatible with the ambassador's view. It's also often wrong, because modified by a double taxation treaty. About the only type of common income universally taxed in the country in which it arises is rental proceeds (and there may be the odd exception to that: I haven't waded forensically through the 130-or-so treaties the UK has with other countries).

 

[Graham376]

Re: France - Burgundy - British Ambassador

I'm no tax expert but I do know that if you are resident in another EU country for more than 183 days you are automatically tax-resident there. In Greece that means that you must get a tax number and that requires you to file a yearly Greek tax return.

In Portugal, you can't buy property, own a car, have a bank account or even take out a mobile phone contract without having a fiscal number. Technically we should file a tax return but never have as we have no taxable income there.

 

[macd]

Re: France - Burgundy - British Ambassador

For many of us, the concept of fiscal numbers (known generically in the EU, as a "TIN": tax identification number), is novel and perhaps the source of a degree of anxiety. As Graham suggests, the mere possession of one does not of itself imply any fiscal liability. The absence of one, on the other hand, can make life difficult. There is no true equivalent in the UK, but the nearest most of us are familiar with is our National Insurance number.

I've had TINs in Greece, Turkey, Spain, Italy, plus a UK NI number. I pay income tax in only one of them. Actual circumstances determine liability, not registered identifiers. Those wishing to keep their heads below the proverbial parapet might take a different view.

 

[GHA]

Re: France - Burgundy - British Ambassador

I'm no tax expert but I do know that if you are resident in another EU country for more than 183 days you are automatically tax-resident there.

How would they know? Or is it "supposed to be".