UK Sailors And Expats In The EU - Run Up To Friday 29th March 2019 & Beyond?

[AndrewB]

Re: A 3 year visa for €7?

If the Greeks still want our money after Brexit, well they'll have to be more accommodating.

I'm not sure they'll be able to make such an allowance as an individual Schengen state, Andrew. Reciprocity is king in such matters: it may require the UK permitting > 90 days in 180 to all Schengen nationals, which is perhaps improbable. If anyone knows differently, I'd be delighted to hear of it.

My guess is that there is always means, provided there is the will. The Greeks in particular have a gift for finding ways round inconvenient regulations.

I know that in the Ionian particularly, there is much concern about the potential impact of Brexit on second home and yacht owners who spend long periods out there - effectively supporting the tourist economy - without necessarily being formally resident. It sounds from this thread as if there is equal concern in Portugal. This is less important to other countries, including the UK.

Postings by Tony Cross and Besonders appear to suggest that current British liveaboards in marinas in Greece can circumvent a 90 day rule by applying for temporary residency before March 1st. I am left wondering if the same would be a good option for those like myself who have a primary residence in the UK, but have a yacht in a Greece where I spend much of the year, certainly more than 90 days (and very possibly more than 183, but hey, who's counting?).

 

[Seven Spades]

Re: A 3 year visa for €7?

I would suggest that everyone with a British registered boat obtain a T2L before 29th March.

 

[macd]

Re: A 3 year visa for €7?

I would suggest that everyone with a British registered boat obtain a T2L before 29th March.

...which will confirm that the boat was "union goods"...before 29 March. Other than the special cases of Croatia and Portugal, I'm struggling to understand the logic of this (and I'm aware the CA is currently promoting T2L). That said, it can do no harm.

 

[Seven Spades]

Re: A 3 year visa for €7?

Me too, but it is free and can do no harm. It might however be a very useful document which you will not be able to have issued retrospectivly.

 

[nortada]

Re: A 3 year visa for €7?

Me too, but it is free and can do no harm. It might however be a very useful document which you will not be able to have issued retrospectivly.

Page 4 of the T2L is issued by HMRC so could probably issued it as and when HMRC choose to do it - even after March 2019?

Whether they would is another issue!

 

[macd]

Re: A 3 year visa for €7?

Page 4 of the T2L is issued by HMRC so could probably issued it as and when HMRC choose to do it - even after March 2019?

Whether they would is another issue!

Whether they would, in the case of no-deal brexit, would be an issue of how much they're prepared to lie. I suspect not lot.

 

[nortada]

Re: A 3 year visa for €7?

Whether they would, in the case of no-deal brexit, would be an issue of how much they're prepared to lie. I suspect not lot.

Lie about what?

Page 4 of a T2L is a straight statement of status - no lies involved.

Just out of interest, have you ever seen a C88/T2L?

 

[macd]

Re: A 3 year visa for €7?

Lie about what?

Page 4 of a T2L is a straight statement of status - no lies involved.

Just out of interest, have you ever seen a C88/T2L?

Yes, I have a T2L (on the "what harm can it do?" principle).
The issue I raise is by what authority can a third country agency confirm "union goods" status?

 

[nortada]

Re: A 3 year visa for €7?

Yes, I have a T2L (on the "what harm can it do?" principle).
The issue I raise is by what authority can a third country agency confirm "union goods" status?

You may recall that I liaised direct with HMRC Salford and chased down this whole T2L saga a couple of years ago and in the process got page 4 of a T2L. There is a lengthy thread on on whole subject on the Liveaboard Link Forum.

As you have a T2L you will know that it is a single page multi-duplicate document issued by the exporting country for goods to be shipped in/out and across the EU. Page 4 stays with the load being shipped. Other pages go to various other agencies for their records.

It is just a shipping document - never intended for yachts in transit.

Although Portugal and Croatia, at times, insist on pleasure vessels producing a T2L, whatever may be suggested, it is totally irrelevant to that vessel’s VAT status.

However, to resolve the impasse, whilst HMRC do not recognise the need for a T2L, on request, they are prepared to frank a page 4. None of the other pages are even completed or actioned!

A word to the wise, despite advise to the contrary, if you send a C88 to Salford it get it converted into a T2L do not enclose your ships papers because they may not be returned!

For anybody who wants a blow-by-blow guide to getting a T2L go to:
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/lag...ide-memoir-british-flagged-vessels-t1885.html

 

[macd]

Re: A 3 year visa for €7?

You seem to miss my point. Whether a T2L (or anything else) confirms an item is "union goods" after Brexit depends entirely on how (historic) union goods are then defined. Since that hasn't been decided yet, there's no way for anyone, HMRC included, to predict it.

In the meantime, as I've happily conceded by word and deed, there's no harm having one. But to present it as a guarantee of future status is misleading.

 

[nortada]

Re: A 3 year visa for €7?

You seem to miss my point. Whether a T2L (or anything else) confirms an item is "union goods" after Brexit depends entirely on how (historic) union goods are then defined. Since that hasn't been decided yet, there's no way for anyone, HMRC included, to predict it.

In the meantime, as I've happily conceded by word and deed, there's no harm having one. But to present it as a guarantee of future status is misleading.

Fully agree.

The T2L saga predates the Brexit Referendum and despite what the Portuguese or Croatian official thinks never conferred any status on the vessel.

However, for an easy life, if that's what they want; that's what they get.

Not sure what, if any function, the T2L will have post Brexit but assume the UK will still be shipping goods to the EU and possibly the T2L could remain significant.

Finally, we agree if you want a T2L it would be a good idea to apply earlier than later.

 

[ean_p]

Re: A 3 year visa for €7?

Notada
Just having read the T2L page referenced. Is the C88 document a document of intending export / movement from the UK (or elswhere within the EU) or is it a retrospective declaration.
What I'm really asking is might it be worthwhile obtaining one (if possible) for a vessel still in the UK at this moment which will travel to the EU at some point though possibly after March 2019.

 

[nortada]

Re: A 3 year visa for €7?

The whole form is C88, which when completed becomes a T2L.

 

[macd]

Re: A 3 year visa for €7?

might it be worthwhile obtaining one (if possible) for a vessel still in the UK at this moment which will travel to the EU at some point though possibly after March 2019.

Again: despite the title of this thread, 29 March 2019 is not necessarily a cut off date for most issues of concern. If there's a no-deal Brexit, then the world as British travellers to Europe know it will change dramatically on that date**. But if May's deal, or something similar, is accepted by the UK, then nothing will change very much until at least the end of 2020, possibly later. During this transitional period, matters such as future relationships concerning trade, security etc, will be ironed out. Issues of future and historic VAT would be addressed during this phase.

That should help you answer your question.

** I've linked to it before, but this document gives a glimpse of changes for travellers: https://ec.europa.eu/info/sites/info/files/brexit_files/info_site/travelling.pdf

 

[nortada]

Getting a T2L.

Notada
Just having read the T2L page referenced. Is the C88 document a document of intending export / movement from the UK (or elswhere within the EU) or is it a retrospective declaration.
What I'm really asking is might it be worthwhile obtaining one (if possible) for a vessel still in the UK at this moment which will travel to the EU at some point though possibly after March 2019.

Again: despite the title of this thread, 29 March 2019 is not necessarily a cut off date for most issues of concern. If there's a no-deal Brexit, then the world as British travellers to Europe know it will change dramatically on that date**. But if May's deal, or something similar, is accepted by the UK, then nothing will change very much until at least the end of 2020, possibly later. During this transitional period, matters such as future relationships concerning trade, security etc, will be ironed out. Issues of future and historic VAT would be addressed during this phase.

That should help you answer your question.

** I've linked to it before, but this document gives a glimpse of changes for travellers: https://ec.europa.eu/info/sites/info/files/brexit_files/info_site/travelling.pdf

Hi Ean,

Think Mac has answered all of your questions.

If you apply, HMRC Salford should still be able to provide you with a T2L.

 

[Artic Warrior]

Just a quick question for the very knowledgeable guys that you are.

My boat is in Greece and I drive across Europe... I'm possibly buying a small apartment and claiming residency so I can stay in Greece.
But my question is if I travel across Europe using my 90 day visa then continue to stay in Greece for that say many months after but then I won't be able to drive back across back to England as my 90 days will have finished and I will need to do a quick visit to turkey etc to start clock again before I can drive back.
Hope you understand what I'm trying to mean.
Colin

 

[sailaboutvic]

I think everyone who got or getting residency in any one country are hoping this will give them free movement any where in europe , if thats the case then your not going to have a problem but i not too sure if that is going to be the case , only time will tell .
For a start inyour case colin what happen when you reach germany and show your passport with a old stamp do you then show a greece residency permit and will the germen/spainish CO going to know what your showing him or even so will they except it . Although you may get away with traving with just a ID card till you reach the UK , but the you have another problem explaining why your passport not been stamp .
The only sure way i can see is , if you can link your background to another eu country through birth/ grandparent and get due Nat .
Anyway the way things are going it may still not happen .

 

[One A.]

Just a quick question for the very knowledgeable guys that you are.

My boat is in Greece and I drive across Europe... I'm possibly buying a small apartment and claiming residency so I can stay in Greece.
But my question is if I travel across Europe using my 90 day visa then continue to stay in Greece for that say many months after but then I won't be able to drive back across back to England as my 90 days will have finished and I will need to do a quick visit to turkey etc to start clock again before I can drive back.
Hope you understand what I'm trying to mean.
Colin

I think after 90 days your supposed to import the car..

 

[macd]

Just a quick question for the very knowledgeable guys that you are.

My boat is in Greece and I drive across Europe... I'm possibly buying a small apartment and claiming residency so I can stay in Greece.
But my question is if I travel across Europe using my 90 day visa then continue to stay in Greece for that say many months after but then I won't be able to drive back across back to England as my 90 days will have finished and I will need to do a quick visit to turkey etc to start clock again before I can drive back.
Hope you understand what I'm trying to mean.
Colin

There's no re-starting the clock for people (in the sense that there is for boats on Temporary Importation): the "90 in 180" is on a rolling calendar. So, if you spent 90 days in Schengen, you'd then need to leave for another 90 days before setting foot in Schengen again. Obviously if you were formally resident in Greece, you could stay there indefinitely without eating into your 90 days, so the maths might work but with no need to visit Turkey. **

Issues with the car itself are fewer, at least pre-Brexit. Practice varies from country, but it's not 90 days as One-A suggests. You seem to see plenty of UK-registered cars in Greece which have been there for aeons. (Which doesn't make them legal.)

Again (yawn): in the event of no-deal: your car insurance would be invalid, your driving licence, too. So you'd need a green card and International Driving Permit. Happy days.

** To give an example:
1. leisurely drive through Europe to Greece, use 15 days Schengen allowance.
2. Spend 5 1/2 months in Greece where you are formally resident: use 0 days allowance. At the end of this your Schengen allowance is now the full 90 days again.
3. Drive home, briskly enough not to take no more than 90 days after leaving Greece.

It's hard to imagine a travel schedule that would hurt you, unless you travelled by pogo-stick. Assuming, always, that you do have formal Greek residence.

 

[nortada]

Just a quick question for the very knowledgeable guys that you are.

My boat is in Greece and I drive across Europe... I'm possibly buying a small apartment and claiming residency so I can stay in Greece.
But my question is if I travel across Europe using my 90 day visa then continue to stay in Greece for that say many months after but then I won't be able to drive back across back to England as my 90 days will have finished and I will need to do a quick visit to turkey etc to start clock again before I can drive back.
Hope you understand what I'm trying to mean.
Colin

Sorry, outside my areas of research so won’t speculate.