UK Sailors And Expats In The EU - Run Up To Friday 29th March 2019 & Beyond?

[Artic Warrior]

Cheers guys for your answers...
I'm in Asia at the moment as of every winter.... But I dont get to see the brexit news much and heard they had decided on the 90 day rule... But not 90 in 90 out...but from what your saying it not set in stone yet...
Oh and the joys of the cruising tax...
Shall see what happens April 2nd for that one lol...

 

[macd]

Cheers guys for your answers...
I dont get to see the brexit news much and heard they had decided on the 90 day rule... But not 90 in 90 out...but from what your saying it not set in stone yet...

You're welcome, warrior.

Schengen "decided on the 90 day rule" for third country nationals about a quarter century ago. It should come as no surprise to any EU country electing to become a third country. Well, not if it was paying attention.

It's not 90 (consecutive) in, 90 (consecutive) out, but a rolling sum. It's pretty much the same as Turkish visa calculations, with which I assume you're familiar.

It's very much not set in stone, but we do know the alternatives regarding travel in the EU:
1. Brexit as per May's deal or something similar: nothing much will change until at least the end of 2020.
2. No-deal Brexit: lots will change, and none of it for the better so far as travel is concerned. Above I've linked to the official EU declaration of what will happen. It doesn't mention leisure craft, but is otherwise comprehensive. Do read it: https://ec.europa.eu/info/sites/info/files/brexit_files/info_site/travelling.pdf

 

[Artic Warrior]

Okea dokea thank you....macd
Yes I'm familiar with the Turkish arrangement.
I am very nervous about buying a place in Greece just so I can stay longer at times...
But to be honest... As I travel a lot anyways Asia and around... Retired at 42 years young and now 49...I don't particularly want to tie myself to a place in Greece ....and as I've read before.. if I choose to reside in Greece I could have problems with the UK side of things.... I have 2 properties in the UK that I rent out which is good for an address etc.

 

[Artic Warrior]

So the next problem is ...
Greece 3 months ...pay cruising tax.
Turkey 3 months...
Greece again 3 months pay another cruising tax ...
What a load of....

 

[sailaboutvic]

So the next problem is ...
Greece 3 months ...pay cruising tax.
Turkey 3 months...
Greece again 3 months pay another cruising tax ...
What a load of....

Is that correct ? 90 days in 180 , 3 months in 6 months out

 

[macd]

Is that correct ? 90 days in 180 , 3 months in 6 months out

No, 3 months in, 3 months out (although the 'rolling' calculation makes it more flexible than that). The "in" gave a little ambiguity: it's not "90 days in, 180 out" but "90 in 180".

 

[sailaboutvic]

No, 3 months in, 3 months out (although the 'rolling' calculation makes it more flexible than that). The "in" gave a little ambiguity: it's not "90 days in, 180 out" but "90 in 180".

Cheers

 

[Graham376]

2. No-deal Brexit: lots will change, and none of it for the better so far as travel is concerned. Above I've linked to the official EU declaration of what will happen. It doesn't mention leisure craft, but is otherwise comprehensive. Do read it: https://ec.europa.eu/info/sites/info/files/brexit_files/info_site/travelling.pdf

Interesting document, thanks for posting. Unless I'm missing something, it doesn't clarify whether being resident in one State or having visa issued by that State allows unlimited access to the rest or, if the 90 day rule will apply to them:-

- the duration of the stay:

- for short stays in the Schengen area, UK nationals will be subject to
limitations as regards the authorised duration of stay within the Schengen
area (with a maximum of 90 days in a 180-day period),

- for long stays, they will in principle require a residence permit or long
stay visa issued by national authorities, under the national rules

 

[macd]

Interesting document, thanks for posting. Unless I'm missing something, it doesn't clarify whether being resident in one State or having visa issued by that State allows unlimited access to the rest or, if the 90 day rule will apply to them:-.....

I think that's probably because the document simply addresses the ins-and-outs of travel rather than residence. It's been fairly comprehensively documented since the Divorce agreement last December that residence in one Schengen country will not grant freedom of movement in the remainder. Guy Verhofstadt, the European Parliament's chief representative in Brexit negotiations, stated at the time that he hoped for more liberal practice, but nothing seems to have come of it.

I'm resigned to chunks of 90 days or so in Greece, and managing any balance carefully. I'd be a bu**er to have to leave the car there because you're not allowed to drive it home.

 

[Mistroma]

Is that correct ? 90 days in 180 , 3 months in 6 months out

90 days in Greece and 90 days in Turkey would use up 90 in 180. You'd then be free to return for another 90 days. So it's 3 months in and 3 months out, not 6 months out as Macd already said.

It could be even more complicated if reciprocal agreements are ever agreed. Such things do exist but I think they pre-date EU. e.g. I believe that Americans have a 90 day agreement with Germany but it can run in parallel with Schengen.

An American could fly from USA to France, spend 89 days and move to Germany for another 90 days before flying home. I believe that if he/she arrives in Germany first then his Schengen timer runs in parallel with the bi-lateral one and they'd need to leave Europe after 90 days.

Certainly lots of room for problems when sailing around France, Spain, Italy and Greece. It seems certain that we'll have lots of things to think about and any Brexit deal is, at best, just likely to postpone some problems for a while.

Oh Joy

 

[nortada]

90 days in Greece and 90 days in Turkey would use up 90 in 180. You'd then be free to return for another 90 days. So it's 3 months in and 3 months out, not 6 months out as Macd already said.

It could be even more complicated if reciprocal agreements are ever agreed. Such things do exist but I think they pre-date EU. e.g. I believe that Americans have a 90 day agreement with Germany but it can run in parallel with Schengen.

An American could fly from USA to France, spend 89 days and move to Germany for another 90 days before flying home. I believe that if he/she arrives in Germany first then his Schengen timer runs in parallel with the bi-lateral one and they'd need to leave Europe after 90 days.

Certainly lots of room for problems when sailing around France, Spain, Italy and Greece. It seems certain that we'll have lots of things to think about and any Brexit deal is, at best, just likely to postpone some problems for a while.

Oh Joy

No Portugal on your list; do you know something we don't?

 

[Besonders]

You're welcome, warrior.

Schengen "decided on the 90 day rule" for third country nationals about a quarter century ago. It should come as no surprise to any EU country electing to become a third country. Well, not if it was paying attention.

It's not 90 (consecutive) in, 90 (consecutive) out, but a rolling sum. It's pretty much the same as Turkish visa calculations, with which I assume you're familiar.

It's very much not set in stone, but we do know the alternatives regarding travel in the EU:
1. Brexit as per May's deal or something similar: nothing much will change until at least the end of 2020.
2. No-deal Brexit: lots will change, and none of it for the better so far as travel is concerned. Above I've linked to the official EU declaration of what will happen. It doesn't mention leisure craft, but is otherwise comprehensive. Do read it: https://ec.europa.eu/info/sites/info/files/brexit_files/info_site/travelling.pdf

Mac,
Thanks for the link to that document, it is IMHO essential reading in order to become familiar with the potential situation after 29 March. There has been a lot of discussion about the 90 day rule, but please dont forget that is the proposed non visa tourist solution. For those who spend considerably more time in Europe you can always apply (at a cost of course) for a longer visa. It is likely, that in our general situation as yacht tourists spending money and not persons seeking work or benefits that a visa would be easily obtained.
Also I would concur that a UK National having residence in one EU country would not entitle you to travel to another EU country post Brexit. All the foregoing is of course subject to other arrangements not being made with the EU and GB as part of some withdrawal or other agreement.

 

[Mistroma]

No Portugal on your list; do you know something we don't?

Well I was only planning to dodge around France, Spain, Italy and Greece over the next few years. No plans to come out of the med. for a while yet. I meant problems for me wrt to my general plans. I suppose I should have said I was referring to my own plans. Why stop at Portugal?
Might as well include Finland, Sweden, Poland etc. .

I might need to time future visits to friends in Sweden to avoid encroaching on my allowed summer sailing in med. countries.

 

[macd]

Besonders,
I hope you're right. But you might like to consider this about "long-stay visas":
A long stay visa or a residence permit issued by a Schengen State allows you to travel or stay in other Schengen States, while respecting the maximum duration of a “short stay” (a stay of "90 days in any 180 day period").
(There are many references to the same; this one's from: https://eeas.europa.eu/sites/eeas/files/frequently_asked_questions_en.pdf

If that sounds uncannily like a prior iteration of the information I offered in the first par of post #529, you should not be surprised. EU regulations often have a common internal logic, albeit written in a key to which successive UK Brexit ministers are entirely deaf.

I'm getting really pi$$ed off with all this (not with you, Besonders). To paraphrase a far more noble expression: donkeys led by donkeys.

 

[Besonders]

Besonders,
I hope you're right. But you might like to consider this about "long-stay visas":
A long stay visa or a residence permit issued by a Schengen State allows you to travel or stay in other Schengen States, while respecting the maximum duration of a “short stay” (a stay of "90 days in any 180 day period").
(There are many references to the same; this one's from: https://eeas.europa.eu/sites/eeas/files/frequently_asked_questions_en.pdf

If that sounds uncannily like a prior iteration of the information I offered in the first par of post #529, you should not be surprised. EU regulations often have a common internal logic, albeit written in a key to which successive UK Brexit ministers are entirely deaf.

I'm getting really pi$$ed off with all this (not with you, Besonders). To paraphrase a far more noble expression: donkeys led by donkeys.

I like this thread, it actually covers just about all the eventual possibilities, with some good advice and relevant pointers. Hopefully, we will all be okay but to just be complacent i do not believe is an option.
Given our somewhat unusual if not unique circumastances as a (sailing) mobile community, these are real issues that i believe will come to affect us and the unprepared may find they encounter significant difficulties in future travel, retirement etc.
I see that by clicking through the document that Mac posted you can reach a further document which if i understand it correctly, lists a number of countries that have a visa free reciprocal travelagreement with the EU. These would include Russia, albania azerbaijan amongst others. My thinking is eventually the UK may have such an agreement. It may not prevent in the short term all the issues that we have discussed, but i think thats probably where we will end up, sometime after the dust has settled
Assuming of course that we do actually leave!!!

 

[macd]

I like this thread,...My thinking is eventually the UK may have such an agreement. It may not prevent in the short term all the issues that we have discussed, but i think thats probably where we will end up, sometime after the dust has settled

What a refreshingly positive fellow you are. I was just about the slash my wrists when you wrote that.

I'd rather not write anything positive about "no deal", but you're right that there's nothing inherent about it that would prevent HMG negotiating future reciprocal provisions, whatever comes to pass on 29 March. But you've got to keep Johnny Foreigner out don't you see?

Reality check: so far, no-one in HMG has shown the ability to negotiate even a pelican crossing.

Meanwhile, back to the gin...:ambivalence:

 

[Besonders]

What a refreshingly positive fellow you are. I was just about the slash my wrists when you wrote that.

I'd rather not write anything positive about "no deal", but you're right that there's nothing inherent about it that would prevent HMG negotiating future reciprocal provisions, whatever comes to pass on 29 March. But you've got to keep Johnny Foreigner out don't you see?

Reality check: so far, no-one in HMG has shown the ability to negotiate even a pelican crossing.

Meanwhile, back to the gin...:ambivalence:

Mac, You raise a fair point that negotiations to date have not been so good. My faith in politicians of all flavours is not very high, however i thinlk that eventually issues will be solved not through any great political feats more through a necessity of finance and business needs... I think that sections of our economy need the EU and vice versa, whilst they are eventually sorting that out either pre or post brexit, we will inadvetantly become the benificieries of these arrangements. I shall remain positive in a sort of if i dont laugh i will certainly cry senario

 

[Tony Cross]

What a refreshingly positive fellow you are. I was just about the slash my wrists when you wrote that.

I'd rather not write anything positive about "no deal", but you're right that there's nothing inherent about it that would prevent HMG negotiating future reciprocal provisions, whatever comes to pass on 29 March. But you've got to keep Johnny Foreigner out don't you see?

Reality check: so far, no-one in HMG has shown the ability to negotiate even a pelican crossing.

Meanwhile, back to the gin...:ambivalence:

I'm not given to optimism generally but it seems to me that even in the event of a 'no deal' that very last thing the UK and EU will want to do is to make life difficult for each other's citizens. It serves no useful purpose and it will antagonise a great many of their own voters. It would seem to me to be much more sensible to 'carry on as before' at least until alternative arrangements have been negotiated.

The EU will want to show a united front, especially in the case of a 'no deal' and they won't want different member states applying different rules as far as UK citizens are concerned. And on top of that, doing something different than what is already the norm is going to be more time consuming and ultimately more expensive.

I know there is a school of thought that sees the EU wanting to 'punish' the UK somehow by making EU travel difficult for UK citizens, but pragmatism generally reigns. In addition, there will be a hope within the EU that within a generation (or less) the UK may once again seek EU membership, they'll not want to snuff out that future spark by being overly harsh now.

It is still my view that as long as UK citizens have obeyed EU rules whilst we were a member state that little will change in the short term after a 'no deal' Brexit.

 

[Tranona]

I'm not given to optimism generally but it seems to me that even in the event of a 'no deal' that very last thing the UK and EU will want to do is to make life difficult for each other's citizens. It serves no useful purpose and it will antagonise a great many of their own voters. It would seem to me to be much more sensible to 'carry on as before' at least until alternative arrangements have been negotiated.

The EU will want to show a united front, especially in the case of a 'no deal' and they won't want different member states applying different rules as far as UK citizens are concerned. And on top of that, doing something different than what is already the norm is going to be more time consuming and ultimately more expensive.

I know there is a school of thought that sees the EU wanting to 'punish' the UK somehow by making EU travel difficult for UK citizens, but pragmatism generally reigns. In addition, there will be a hope within the EU that within a generation (or less) the UK may once again seek EU membership, they'll not want to snuff out that future spark by being overly harsh now.

It is still my view that as long as UK citizens have obeyed EU rules whilst we were a member state that little will change in the short term after a 'no deal' Brexit.

+1

Although don't subscribe to the view that the EU will exist in its current form for too far into the future.

We may hear more today when Brussels reveals its plans for no deal.

 

[nortada]

Registration For Long-stay Campers?

Just had a request from a couple of mobile home owners (campers to you and me), asking if I knew of any mobile home owners who have registered using their municipal caravan park as an address?

They made the point that under existing EU law they are required to register if they are in the country for more than 80 days. But like many others have never bothered.

This year we appear to have more campers than usual and many of them intend to be in Portugal for the rest of the winter.

I pointed them in the direction of the local Câmara but would be interested if anybody else could shed any light on this?