UK Sailors And Expats In The EU - Run Up To Friday 29th March 2019 & Beyond?

[macd]

Re: Registration For Long-stay Campers?

In some countries (and Greece is one) if you want to rent an apartment, buy a car, or do anything involving interacting with the state (like paying for a DEKPA I expect) you'll need a tax reference number and that typically means you need to file tax returns.

The devil is in the detail in all such matters, Tony. In this case, precisely what "typically" encompasses, and what it does not.
I took a Greek tax number (to get a phone contract) . There's never been the slightest suggestion that I should as a consequence file a tax return.

Greeny, in post #558, sums it up more accurately, with the exception that the "183 day rule" is not a rule at all, but a guide which is easily understood but far from reliable. The legal definition of "established" or "normally/ordinarily resident" is, as I've written before, rather more complex. 184 days p.a. plus formally resident is, however, more compelling.

 

[jordanbasset]

Re: Registration For Long-stay Campers?

When we were looking to buy in Spain we took some advice and we were clearly told while residency does not mean you will automatically be tax resident, it does give a strong presumption to the Spanish authorities and we would have to prove we did not spend longer than 183 days in any 12 month period (does not have to be consecutive)

 

[greeny]

Re: Registration For Long-stay Campers?

Agree with your points but 'Registering for residence' - this term could cause confusion.

It doesn't follow that people who register (with the câmara) want residency (from the immigration authorities); nor do they intend to spend 183 days in that country. They just wish to comply with a requirement to register for a stay in the host country.

Predominately the situation with camper vans, who hope to cruise much of the EU but remain based in the UK.

Om the paperwork i received it shows Residencia and not registration so I don't know where the term registration comes from. Certainly not at the Camera where I did mine and subsequently my wife's.
I will be visiting the SEF when I get back to Portugal with a view to converting my Residencia/ temporary residencia/ registration or whatever it is, into my "permanent residencia" or whatever that is really called.
Whilst I am there I will try to clarify what the real terms are and what they mean. In the meanwhile I'll stay confused as usual, he he. I'll post the outcome if I get any joy with it.
Regardless of the terminology, as you say, there appears to be no-one chasing anyone down for tax reporting after either 6 months or 6 years. Unless you have an income over here or have made profits from house sale etc. they seem to leave you alone.

 

[nortada]

Re: Registration For Long-stay Campers?

Om the paperwork i received it shows Residencia and not registration so I don't know where the term registration comes from. Certainly not at the Camera where I did mine and subsequently my wife's.
I will be visiting the SEF when I get back to Portugal with a view to converting my Residencia/ temporary residencia/ registration or whatever it is, into my "permanent residencia" or whatever that is really called.
Whilst I am there I will try to clarify what the real terms are and what they mean. In the meanwhile I'll stay confused as usual, he he. I'll post the outcome if I get any joy with it.
Regardless of the terminology, as you say, there appears to be no-one chasing anyone down for tax reporting after either 6 months or 6 years. Unless you have an income over here or have made profits from house sale etc. they seem to leave you alone.

The title of the Registration Form issued by the câmara is Certificado De Registo De Cidadao Da Uniao Europeia, on behalf of The Republica Portuguesa.

Nothing about residencia anywhere on this certificate.

Interestingly, the literal translation is - Certificate of Registration as a Citizen of the European Union.

Post Brexit it will be interesting what is made of this - I suspect very little in a country that is determined to not only retain but increase the size of it's British Expat community.

 

[Graham376]

Re: Registration For Long-stay Campers?

The title of the Registration Form issued by the câmara is Certificado De Registo De Cidadao Da Uniao Europeia, on behalf of The Republica Portuguesa.

Nothing about residencia anywhere on this certificate.

Interestingly, the literal translation is - Certificate of Registration as a Citizen of the European Union.

Post Brexit it will be interesting what is made of this - I suspect very little in a country that is determined to not only retain but increase the size of it's British Expat community.

The certificate you quote, issued by the local authority, merely confirms that the person is resident at an address, it is not a residence (as in a resident of a country) certificate. The 5 year residence certificate is an extra step issued now by SEF (used to be a different system when I originally got "residence") Unless it has changed, there is then a 5 year wait before permanent residence is granted.

 

[greeny]

Re: Registration For Long-stay Campers?

The certificate you quote, issued by the local authority, merely confirms that the person is resident at an address, it is not a residence (as in a resident of a country) certificate. The 5 year residence certificate is an extra step issued now by SEF (used to be a different system when I originally got "residence") Unless it has changed, there is then a 5 year wait before permanent residence is granted.

Thanks for explaining it Graham. So it seems that I have to do 5 yrs as a registered person, then 5 yrs as an temporary or interim resident and then I can get my permanent residency after the 10 yrs is completed. I've almost completed the first 5 so I'll see what they give me at SEF next month. To be honest I don't really care what they call it as long as it permits me to stay but it's good to understand the process.

 

[nortada]

Re: Registration For Long-stay Campers?

The certificate you quote, issued by the local authority, merely confirms that the person is resident at an address, it is not a residence (as in a resident of a country) certificate. The 5 year residence certificate is an extra step issued now by SEF (used to be a different system when I originally got "residence") Unless it has changed, there is then a 5 year wait before permanent residence is granted.

Agree

 

[nortada]

Re: Registration For Long-stay Campers?

Thanks for explaining it Graham. So it seems that I have to do 5 yrs as a registered person, then 5 yrs as an temporary or interim resident and then I can get my permanent residency after the 10 yrs is completed. I've almost completed the first 5 so I'll see what they give me at SEF next month. To be honest I don't really care what they call it as long as it permits me to stay but it's good to understand the process.

Agree the first bit and after 5 years you will be able to apply for residencia, which will last for 10 years and then have to be renewed. My spies advise that once you have registered, provided you haven’t been naughty, all of the subsequent steps are straight forward.

Back to the beginning.

Ref Brexit; the advice that is being offered a ambassadorial level is that registration, will enable Brits post Brexit to continue to enjoy similar privileges to now. This is why the advice to register before 29th March.

Greeny, you are correct you have to be registered for 5 years before you can get residencia.

If registration doesn’t permit Brits to remain in country post Brexit, Faro airport could be very busy on 30th March (not of choice, I will already be in the UK). The very last thing Portugal wants

Something else to consider - Grandfather Rights.

They have been mentined elsewhere and the British Ambassador to Portugal has confirmed that post Brexit Grandfather Rights will be respected. The 1384 Treaty of Windsor (between England and Portugal but upgraded to include the whole UK) confers significant Grandfather Rights on both countries.

Gonna be an interesting few weeks but my money is still on no Brexit so after the fear has passed, to minimise the risk of unwanted attention will some Brits rescind their registration? But the Genie will be out of the bottle!

Just asking?

 

[Graham376]

Re: Registration For Long-stay Campers?

Greeny, things change over time so you need to go to SEF and check for yourself. Reading the posts, there is confusion about living/being resident at an address and being a Resident of a Country.

My experience - To get residence in a country, an address is needed and the certificate referred to above merely confirmed that I lived at the address quoted.

I then had to take the certificate to another office and was given a second certificate containing the words RESIDENCIA - SEF which lasted for 5 years and had more detail - place of birth, date of birth, parents names etc. and signed by President da Junta.

Some time after this expired I then went to SEF office (couple of months wait for appt) and applied for permanent residence, which came as a card with photo.

 

[nortada]

Re: Registration For Long-stay Campers?

This is my understanding but it seems to vary from câmara to câmara. Well it is Portugal!

For Brexit, I am led to believe all that will be required is the certificate of registration.

Think Portugal are looking for the easiest way to square the circle and this is possibly why Grandfather Rights have been raised?

 

[Graham376]

Re: Registration For Long-stay Campers?

This is my understanding but it seems to vary from câmara to câmara. Well it is Portugal!

For Brexit, I am led to believe all that will be required is the certificate of registration.

Think Portugal are looking for the easiest way to square the circle and this is possibly why Grandfather Rights have been raised?

You may be correct but I have my doubts. All you have proof of is that you have an address in Portugal but you don't have a residence document issued by SEF. How are you going to satisfy officialdom there or other countries you drive through on the way home that you have right to be there >90 days?

 

[Tony Cross]

Re: Registration For Long-stay Campers?

We were told that you needed to show you were genuinely resident at address. This could be by a contract with your landlord, utility bills for the address, or a certificate from your Fregesia, which requires you to get certification from two local voters. It is normal I understand for campsites to issue contracts to those who are permanent residents, certainly the campsite we used to use did this. There are variations between Camaras though we have learnt from others going through the same process. The other important thing for residents is driving licences.

Good point, and now you mention it, when we registered we had a yearly contract with the marina. It is important I believe (and so does the UK ambassador to Greece) for UK citizens in any EU country to register before the end of March. It may be that you need to be creative with your proof of address but clearly you have to be living somewhere.

The UK ambassador to Greece did advise permanent residents here to change to a Greek driving license to avoid the possibility of having to buy an international driving licence each year. You can do that (in Greece) without taking a new driving test by exchanging your UK license for a Greek one. There is a fee to pay to do this (in Greece) and the ambassador made it clear that if you permanently return to the UK the DVLA will change it back. She advised everyone to do that before the end of March.

The devil is in the detail in all such matters, Tony. In this case, precisely what "typically" encompasses, and what it does not.

I took a Greek tax number (to get a phone contract) . There's never been the slightest suggestion that I should as a consequence file a tax return.

If you speak to a Greek accountant you'll find that (legally at least) having a tax number in Greece requires you to submit yearly tax returns. It is certainly true that nobody (at the moment) will chase you if you don't, but that's more a symptom of the lax Greek attitude to things like this, especially since the Greeks probably guess that they'll not collect any tax from you (and others in the same position) so why waste time and money chasing you.

My concern is what happens after Brexit. It's likely, knowing Greece as well as we do, that nothing much will change, unless you buy a car (there is a tax implication with certain sizes and ages of cars) or have any income arising in Greece. However, since we now live here in a rented apartment permanently I felt is wise to 'voluntarily' file a 'zero tax to pay' return to be seen to be complying with the laws here.

 

[macd]

Re: Registration For Long-stay Campers?

The UK ambassador to Greece did advise permanent residents here to change to a Greek driving license to avoid the possibility of having to buy an international driving licence each year. You can do that (in Greece) without taking a new driving test by exchanging your UK license for a Greek one. There is a fee to pay to do this (in Greece) and the ambassador made it clear that if you permanently return to the UK the DVLA will change it back. She advised everyone to do that before the end of March..

This is the same ambassador who asserted that all UK income (of expats) is taxed in the UK, which is laughably, irresponsibly wrong. However, she's correct about driving licences. Her comments mirror HMG's advice (and mine, since before this thread even began).

 

[capnsensible]

Re: Registration For Long-stay Campers?

Nice one, Senor.

SPANISH Prime Minister Pedro Sanchez has tried to calm British expats in Spain by saying a no-deal Brexit will not affect their rights.

Even if Britain leaves the European Union on March 29 without a deal, the 300,000 Brits registered in Spain will be protected, said Spain’s leader.

“Their rights will be preserved whatever the scenario,” he said at the end-of-year news conference traditionally given by the Spanish leader, Reuters reported.

Sanchez said by February Spain would have drawn up a law covering citizens’ rights and plans to preserve bilateral commercial relations.

 

[Tony Cross]

Re: Registration For Long-stay Campers?

This is the same ambassador who asserted that all UK income (of expats) is taxed in the UK, which is laughably, irresponsibly wrong. However, she's correct about driving licences. Her comments mirror HMG's advice (and mine, since before this thread even began).

Yes it is. All I can do is report what was said, so if you think that Ms Kate Smith CMG, Her Majesty’s Ambassador to the Hellenic Republic, is 'irresponsible' I suggest you contact her via the British Embassy in Athens, her biography is here. I'm sure she'd value your input.

 

[jordanbasset]

Re: Registration For Long-stay Campers?

Certainly people who have joint UK and US citizenship can and are sometime liable in the US for tax on UK income. It was one of the reasons Boris Johnson renounced his US Citizenship

 

[nortada]

Re: Registration For Long-stay Campers?

Certainly people who have joint UK and US citizenship can and are sometime liable in the US for tax on UK income. It was one of the reasons Boris Johnson renounced his US Citizenship

Is the suggestion that post Brexit, all expat income/assets will be taxed in both the UK and the host EU country?

Would the last Brit expat leaving please turn out the light!

This should do wonders for the Portuguese economy.:encouragement:

Don’t worry, at present, each EU state decides it’s own taxation policy but come the future and ‘ever closer together’ ?:ambivalence:

Sorry, Fred Drift and speculation. Not encouraged here but could make a good thread in Anything Brexit.

Now back to thread.

Understand the CA have put out a rather depressing tome on Brits abroad and life after Brexit.:nonchalance:

Yet to see it, any comments?

 

[macd]

Re: Registration For Long-stay Campers?

Yes it is. All I can do is report what was said, so if you think that Ms Kate Smith CMG, Her Majesty’s Ambassador to the Hellenic Republic, is 'irresponsible' I suggest you contact her via the British Embassy in Athens, her biography is here. I'm sure she'd value your input.

No need for that, Tony. I responded to your account of the meeting shortly after you posted it, giving chapter and verse on why she spoke hogwash. (Post #477) Clearly you're in no way to blame for that, and it's entirely reasonable that you should trust her statements. That is precisely why they were irresponsible.

 

[maxi77]

Re: Registration For Long-stay Campers?

Certainly people who have joint UK and US citizenship can and are sometime liable in the US for tax on UK income. It was one of the reasons Boris Johnson renounced his US Citizenship

The US have pretty draconian rules on taxing their citizens where ever they reside. For most of us the existing double taxation agreements which the UK has with most countries including all EU countries should make life simpler especially as they are all bilateral rather than being embroiled in EU agreements

 

[Tony Cross]

Re: Registration For Long-stay Campers?

No need for that, Tony. I responded to your account of the meeting shortly after you posted it, giving chapter and verse on why she spoke hogwash. (Post #477) Clearly you're in no way to blame for that, and it's entirely reasonable that you should trust her statements. That is precisely why they were irresponsible.

Actually I was quite serious. If you are certain that a UK ambassador is giving incorrect advice to UK citizens in her country of responsibility I think you have a duty to report that.