UK Sailors And Expats In The EU - Run Up To Friday 29th March 2019 & Beyond?

[maxi77]

Re: Registration For Long-stay Campers?

Just had a request from a couple of mobile home owners (campers to you and me), asking if I knew of any mobile home owners who have registered using their municipal caravan park as an address?

They made the point that under existing EU law they are required to register if they are in the country for more than 80 days. But like many others have never bothered.

This year we appear to have more campers than usual and many of them intend to be in Portugal for the rest of the winter.

I pointed them in the direction of the local Câmara but would be interested if anybody else could shed any light on this?

Establishing that you are resident is the big problem. If you have some form of contract like a long term marina contract then this will do, otherwise you need a certificate from the local Junta which has been signed by 2 locals on the voting register in that Junta area. Our Junta was very helpful and our landlord [we have only an informal rental arrangement which in our experience is very common ] and the owner of a bar we frequent were happy to sign our form. We now have a paper signed by the President of our Junta declaring we are residents. Identity is covered by passport and some Camaras need proof of income. We are waiting for my P60s being translated

 

[nortada]

Re: Registration For Long-stay Campers?

Establishing that you are resident is the big problem. If you have some form of contract like a long term marina contract then this will do, otherwise you need a certificate from the local Junta which has been signed by 2 locals on the voting register in that Junta area. Our Junta was very helpful and our landlord [we have only an informal rental arrangement which in our experience is very common ] and the owner of a bar we frequent were happy to sign our form. We now have a paper signed by the President of our Junta declaring we are residents. Identity is covered by passport and some Camaras need proof of income. We are waiting for my P60s being translated

From your response (Junta), I assume you are referring to Spain?

Thanks for this but we have been here before and my query was regarding campers?

P60s translated?

Having followed this thread I believe confusion exists between Registration and (fiscal) Residencia - they are not the same.

Registration.

It has long been a requirement for an EU visitor to another EU country, who intends to remain in that country for more than 80 days, to register with the authorities in the host country. Depending on the country, different local authorities (Câmara, Junta, Police etc.) will complete this registration process. Until recently this requirement appears to have been largely ignored by both host country and the visitor but with Brexit coming down the tracks, for Brits this has changed. Because it is simpler for EU citizens to register than visitors from non-EU countries and it is believed that registration will permit Brits, post Brexit, to visit for longer than 80 days, registration has become attractive.

In Portugal, registration simple and is valid for 5 years. You are then expected to get residencia, which is valid for another 10 years and can be renewed.

Residencia.

Is a more complicated procedure conducted at a national government level and can carry tax implications. If you spend more than 183 days in an EU country you can be regarded as a resident for tax purposes and required to submit a tax return. Depending on bi-lateral agreements, you may or may not have an extra tax liability.

Irrespective of the time spent, folk who own property in the host country may be considered residential for tax purposes but for the mobile community (campers and sailors) it is possible to spend more than 80 but less than 183 days in country and register (with any benefits that may accrue) but not have a tax liability.

Possibly, I should add, the vehicle (camper/boat) can be in the host country for more than 183 days without tax implications, it is, not their property that is affected.

It is my understanding that in Portugal, unless you enter the Golden Visa Scheme, you must register (for 5 years) before you can get residencia.

If I am wrong, I am sure others will be along correct me.

Finally, Citizenship and Nonedom status (UK Inheritance Tax) are very different issues, which are rather out side the scope of this thread that is trying to get it's head around the best way for Brits overseas to best manage the possible implications of Brexit.

 

[maxi77]

Re: Registration For Long-stay Campers?

From your response (Junta), I assume you are referring to Spain?

Thanks for this but we have been here before and my query was regarding campers?

P60s translated?

Having followed this thread I believe confusion exists between Registration and (fiscal) Residencia - they are not the same.

Registration.

It has long been a requirement for an EU visitor to another EU country, who intends to remain in that country for more than 80 days, to register with the authorities in the host country. Depending on the country, different local authorities (Câmara, Junta, Police etc.) will complete this registration process. Until recently this requirement appears to have been largely ignored by both host country and the visitor but with Brexit coming down the tracks, for Brits this has changed. Because it is simpler for EU citizens to register than visitors from non-EU countries and it is believed that registration will permit Brits, post Brexit, to visit for longer than 80 days, registration has become attractive.

In Portugal, registration simple and is valid for 5 years. You are then expected to get residencia, which is valid for another 10 years and can be renewed.

Residencia.

Is a more complicated procedure conducted at a national government level and can carry tax implications. If you spend more than 183 days in an EU country you can be regarded as a resident for tax purposes and required to submit a tax return. Depending on bi-lateral agreements, you may or may not have an extra tax liability.

Irrespective of the time spent, folk who own property in the host country may be considered residential for tax purposes but for the mobile community (campers and sailors) it is possible to spend more than 80 but less than 183 days in country and register (with any benefits that may accrue) but not have a tax liability.

Possibly, I should add, the vehicle (camper/boat) can be in the host country for more than 183 days without tax implications, it is, not their property that is affected.

It is my understanding that in Portugal, unless you enter the Golden Visa Scheme, you must register (for 5 years) before you can get residencia.

If I am wrong, I am sure others will be along correct me.

Finally, Citizenship and Nonedom status (UK Inheritance Tax) are very different issues, which are rather out side the scope of this thread that is trying to get it's head around the best way for Brits overseas to best manage the possible implications of Brexit.

The junta de freguesia is the executive body of a freguesia (civil parish), a subdivision of each municipality (município or concelho) of Portugal.

 

[greeny]

Re: Registration For Long-stay Campers?

"Possibly, I should add, the vehicle (camper/boat) can be in the host country for more than 183 days without tax implications,"

Don't think this is correct. Foreign vehicles are only allowed in the country for a maximum of 6 months and then they need to me matriculated or removed. I have 2 sets of friends who have had this rule applied along with the fines to go with it. Of course it can be an easy rule to dodge and many do, but if you get caught, it is enforced.
If you live in a camper van and use it as your address for residence it may be difficult to claim its been out of the country for any length of time unless you come up with something inventive.

 

[nortada]

Re: Registration For Long-stay Campers?

"Possibly, I should add, the vehicle (camper/boat) can be in the host country for more than 183 days without tax implications,"

Don't think this is correct. Foreign vehicles are only allowed in the country for a maximum of 6 months and then they need to me matriculated or removed. I have 2 sets of friends who have had this rule applied along with the fines to go with it. Of course it can be an easy rule to dodge and many do, but if you get caught, it is enforced.
If you live in a camper van and use it as your address for residence it may be difficult to claim its been out of the country for any length of time unless you come up with something inventive.

Greeny, you are of course correct.

Unless they re-register matriculation and circulation taxes could be applied to vehicles that over stay their welcome but this has nothing to do with residencia or personal registration.

I should have made myself clearer, I was referring to pesonal taxation (income tax) with post Brexit in mind.

Back to campers, it has been suggested that they could rent a property short-term or use a friend’s address to register but this could be seen as rather bending the rules?

Nevertheless, if they wish to winter in Portugal (and a lot do), under EU rules they are supposed to register.

No way will Portugal want to forfit the revenue campers generate so bit of a conundrum. Suspect, as usual, the Portuguese authorities will ignore the whole issue.

 

[Graham376]

Re: Registration For Long-stay Campers?

If you live in a camper van and use it as your address for residence it may be difficult to claim its been out of the country for any length of time unless you come up with something inventive.

A good memory is necessary to remember which lies have been told to which authorities

Although many get away with driving on UK plates, if caught the matriculation/import tax can be thousands of euros for older vehicles, not just a few quid to change plates. There is a scheme to matriculate/import a car which has been owned for (IIRC) 6 months at the same time residence is granted and costs around 100 euro but, there are restrictions on selling it within a few years.

 

[nortada]

Re: Registration For Long-stay Campers?

If you live in a camper van and use it as your address for residence it may be difficult to claim its been out of the country for any length of time unless you come up with something inventive.

A good memory is necessary to remember which lies have been told to which authorities.

Greeny.

This Registration/Residency and camper-vans discussion has highlighted a bit of an anomaly.

Nothing to do with Brexit, understand currently there is a blanket EU-wide requirement that long stay visitors (over 80 days) to the EU (both EU citizens and aliens) register with the host country.

I have been told that some countries (Spain) expect registration within 30 days of arriving in their country but as is often the case, I have no hard facts and as we know, this rule is rarely enforced.

So a visitor in a camper van who intends to winter down south is supposed to register but to register they require a postal address - not possible - especially if they are touring!

Provided they leave their host country before 183 days have elapsed, then their vehicle will not attract any liability for matriculation tax. Moreover, they will not become a fiscal resident and so required to submit a tax return.

To make sure that we do not 'qualify' as fiscal residents, we do not spend 6 months in a year in any foreign EU state.

Worked well until the threat of Brexit appeared over the horizon. :disgust:

Graham.

Agree - I would never lie to the authorities anywhere - a sure path to serious trouble.

Nor would I gratuitously volunteer information not specifically requested - this can leave a lot of wiggle room!

 

[greeny]

Re: Registration For Long-stay Campers?

Greeny.

This Registration/Residency and camper-vans discussion has highlighted a bit of an anomaly.

Nothing to do with Brexit, understand currently there is a blanket EU-wide requirement that long stay visitors (over 80 days) to the EU (both EU citizens and aliens) register with the host country.

I have been told that some countries (Spain) expect registration within 30 days of arriving in their country but as is often the case, I have no hard facts and as we know, this rule is rarely enforced.

So a visitor in a camper van who intends to winter down south is supposed to register but to register they require a postal address - not possible - especially if they are touring!

Provided they leave their host country before 183 days have elapsed, then their vehicle will not attract any liability for matriculation tax. Moreover, they will not become a fiscal resident and so required to submit a tax return.

To make sure that we do not 'qualify' as fiscal residents, we do not spend 6 months in a year in any foreign EU state.

Worked well until the threat of Brexit appeared over the horizon. :disgust:

Graham.

Agree - I would never lie to the authorities anywhere - a sure path to serious trouble.

Nor would I gratuitously volunteer information not specifically requested - this can leave a lot of wiggle room!

If they are on an official campsite then surely that address will suffice. Just as a marina address would. If they move on the following week who's checking?
If they are not on an official site (which they should not be as "wild camping" is prohibited in Portugal) then maybe they need to go on an official one and pay for a week or two to utilise that address.
In my experience (and I can see my local congregation of vans from my window). most of the vans stay for several weeks or longer in one place, only moving to go to Lidl or fill up with fuel / water and then promptly returning to their pitch before someone else grabs it.

 

[nortada]

Re: Registration For Long-stay Campers?

If they are on an official campsite then surely that address will suffice. Just as a marina address would. If they move on the following week who's checking?
If they are not on an official site (which they should not be as "wild camping" is prohibited in Portugal) then maybe they need to go on an official one and pay for a week or two to utilise that address.
In my experience (and I can see my local congregation of vans from my window). most of the vans stay for several weeks or longer in one place, only moving to go to Lidl or fill up with fuel / water and then promptly returning to their pitch before someone else grabs it.

Spot on.

That's the way I see it.

 

[Graham376]

Re: Registration For Long-stay Campers?

Agree - I would never lie to the authorities anywhere - a sure path to serious trouble.

Just keep them guessing and confused and blame everything on misunderstood translation. My wife has two IDs in different names, I have only one but two residential addresses (+UK) and the car is registered at a third.

 

[Tony Cross]

Re: Registration For Long-stay Campers?

I think too much is being made of this issue of registration and a local address. Registration isn't some ruse from the EU to get you paying tax or to make you eligible for national service in whatever country you happen to be in. It's simply so that EU countries know who is living there long term, and if you're living there you must be living somewhere. For yachties a marina is accepted, as should an official campsite for those in motorhomes. Registration places no obligations at all on you, all you are doing is telling the authorities that you're in their country for more than 90 days. Think of it as an automatic visa.

 

[greeny]

Re: Registration For Long-stay Campers?

I think too much is being made of this issue of registration and a local address. Registration isn't some ruse from the EU to get you paying tax or to make you eligible for national service in whatever country you happen to be in. It's simply so that EU countries know who is living there long term, and if you're living there you must be living somewhere. For yachties a marina is accepted, as should an official campsite for those in motorhomes. Registration places no obligations at all on you, all you are doing is telling the authorities that you're in their country for more than 90 days. Think of it as an automatic visa.

Hope and think you're probably right Tony, but some european countries have "joined up" systems between government departments. Probably not the ones we're primarily discussing here but my son lives in Germany and they definitely share this info over there between departments. He found out the hard way.
In Portugal, when I went to the fiscal office to register for tax reporting 4 years ago, they already had my "registration" as resident on record against my fiscal number. They hadn't used the information but they were definitely aware of it.

 

[nortada]

Re: Registration For Long-stay Campers?

I think too much is being made of this issue of registration and a local address. Registration isn't some ruse from the EU to get you paying tax or to make you eligible for national service in whatever country you happen to be in. It's simply so that EU countries know who is living there long term, and if you're living there you must be living somewhere. For yachties a marina is accepted, as should an official campsite for those in motor homes. Registration places no obligations at all on you, all you are doing is telling the authorities that you're in their country for more than 90 days. Think of it as an automatic visa.

Bit confused?

How is too much being made of this issue of registration and a local address?

For those who have residency or registered - no issue. For those attempting to register (before Brexit) - big issue!

The question is how can Brits on the move comply with the requirement to register, when one of the central requirement is a recognized (mailing) address?

Until recently, the authorities were not prepared to accept marina berths as an acceptable address - in some (but not all) places, this situation has been reversed so now the question, how do camper vans comply and register?

We have yet to hear of any camper successfully using 'an official site' as an address; hence this latest discussion.

Initially, there was some confusion over the relationship between registration and residency but again, this has largely been resolved.

Despite the concept of EU unity, it appears that various EU states have different attitudes and procedures, which is why, this subject may have to be addressed at a local level.

Until recently this whole topic was largely academic but Brexit has change all of this.

Why?

Well, there is a message coming from many sources that if a Brit is legally registered in an EU country, then post Brexit, life may continue much as before, if not, access to that country may be subject to Schengen Rules and visas.:ambivalence:

 

[nortada]

Re: Registration For Long-stay Campers?

Hope and think you're probably right Tony, but some european countries have "joined up" systems between government departments. Probably not the ones we're primarily discussing here but my son lives in Germany and they definitely share this info over there between departments. He found out the hard way.
In Portugal, when I went to the fiscal office to register for tax reporting 4 years ago, they already had my "registration" as resident on record against my fiscal number. They hadn't used the information but they were definitely aware of it.

Interesting as it is possible to register without having a fiscal number.

If you want to work the system, it would appear that you need to spend less than 183 days per year in county to avoid any personal tax liability.

That is, provided you do not generate any wealth in your host country.

This ploy would meet the needs of many northern European pensioners who wish to winter down south.

 

[Tony Cross]

Re: Registration For Long-stay Campers?

<snip>
Probably not the ones we're primarily discussing here but my son lives in Germany and they definitely share this info over there between departments. He found out the hard way.
In Portugal, when I went to the fiscal office to register for tax reporting 4 years ago, they already had my "registration" as resident on record against my fiscal number. They hadn't used the information but they were definitely aware of it.

Registration itself doesn't require any more of you, though of course you're 'on the system'. Longer term residents should of course also be aware that once you've been resident in a country for 183 days you are automatically a tax resident - that brings with it a range of requirements depending on which country you're in. In some countries (and Greece is one) if you want to rent an apartment, buy a car, or do anything involving interacting with the state (like paying for a DEKPA I expect) you'll need a tax reference number and that typically means you need to file tax returns.

Bit confused?

How is too much being made of this issue of registration and a local address?

For those who have residency or registered - no issue. For those attempting to register (before Brexit) - big issue!

<snip>

My comment was related to the posts querying whether a campsite would be an acceptable address for registration. In this part of Crete those attempting to register before Brexit are having no difficulties. At the recent meeting with the ambassador she was very clear that everyone should register before Brexit.

 

[Graham376]

Re: Registration For Long-stay Campers?

...longer term residents should of course also be aware that once you've been resident in a country for 183 days you are automatically a tax resident - that brings with it a range of requirements depending on which country you're in. In some countries (and Greece is one) if you want to rent an apartment, buy a car, or do anything involving interacting with the state (like paying for a DEKPA I expect) you'll need a tax reference number and that typically means you need to file tax returns.

In Portugal, having a fiscal number doesn't automatically trigger tax returns and the only people I know who do file are those who have exited the UK system and "officially" set up residence here instead.

 

[nortada]

Re: Registration For Long-stay Campers?

Registration itself doesn't require any more of you, though of course you're 'on the system'. Longer term residents should of course also be aware that once you've been resident in a country for 183 days you are automatically a tax resident - that brings with it a range of requirements depending on which country you're in. In some countries (and Greece is one) if you want to rent an apartment, buy a car, or do anything involving interacting with the state (like paying for a DEKPA I expect) you'll need a tax reference number and that typically means you need to file tax returns.

My comment was related to the posts querying whether a campsite would be an acceptable address for registration. In this part of Crete those attempting to register before Brexit are having no difficulties. At the recent meeting with the ambassador she was very clear that everyone should register before Brexit.

In Portugal, having a fiscal number doesn't automatically trigger tax returns and the only people I know who do file are those who have exited the UK system and "officially" set up residence here instead.

Confirms that procedures and attitudes across the EU are different so it is important to research the country you aim to visit - obvious really but rather runs counter to the view that all 27 are united on all issues.

Think these differences will become increasingly obvious over the next few weeks/months.

It is my understanding that if a Brit opts to exit the UK system and "officially" set up residence in Portugal, HMRC advises Portugal of this change of status.

 

[greeny]

Re: Registration For Long-stay Campers?

In Portugal, having a fiscal number doesn't automatically trigger tax returns and the only people I know who do file are those who have exited the UK system and "officially" set up residence here instead.

I don't think Tony is suggesting a fiscal number does necessitate tax returns but that registering for residence may do after 183 days. In fact, that is the requirement as I understand it.
Many people do not bother but surely by applying for residence you are saying that you are going to live in that country and that would then lead on to a liability to report your finances in that country. Fortunately for many people in Portugal the authorities are not following this through and chasing individuals down. I know that other countries do. Germany for example.

 

[nortada]

Re: Registration For Long-stay Campers?

I don't think Tony is suggesting a fiscal number does necessitate tax returns but that registering for residence may do after 183 days. In fact, that is the requirement as I understand it.
Many people do not bother but surely by applying for residence you are saying that you are going to live in that country and that would then lead on to a liability to report your finances in that country. Fortunately for many people in Portugal the authorities are not following this through and chasing individuals down. I know that other countries do. Germany for example.

Agree with your points but 'Registering for residence' - this term could cause confusion.

It doesn't follow that people who register (with the câmara) want residency (from the immigration authorities); nor do they intend to spend 183 days in that country. They just wish to comply with a requirement to register for a stay in the host country.

Predominately the situation with camper vans, who hope to cruise much of the EU but remain based in the UK.

 

[maxi77]

Re: Registration For Long-stay Campers?

My comment was related to the posts querying whether a campsite would be an acceptable address for registration. In this part of Crete those attempting to register before Brexit are having no difficulties. At the recent meeting with the ambassador she was very clear that everyone should register before Brexit.

We were told that you needed to show you were genuinely resident at address. This could be by a contract with your landlord, utility bills for the address, or a certificate from your Fregesia, which requires you to get certification from two local voters. It is normal I understand for campsites to issue contracts to those who are permanent residents, certainly the campsite we used to use did this. There are variations between Camaras though we have learnt from others going through the same process. The other important thing for residents is driving licences.