ugly modern boats

[Bosun Higgs]

I'm not a knocker of AWBs, not seriously. But wandering around the club marina this morning I couldnt help but notice just how ugly some of them are compared to the AWBs of yesteryear. The one that particularly caught / offended my eye was a Benny Oceanis 393? Clipper which was as slab sided and high as many a power boat, and certainly more so than the Sigma 39 parked next door to it. It managed the trick of making a 39 ft boat, which after all isnt a small yacht, look short and fat. But to be fair, the Benny was not alone - there were a couple of Bavs with similarly high topsides as well as that most ugly of modern boats a Legend.

But it doesnt need to be that way. There were a couple of Elans that were sleek as well as functional. And a Benny First that looked good.

So why do sailors buy these slab sided boats - they cant sail well with all that windage.

 

[TiggerToo]

agree with you Bosun (see my GOG thread no donw below). But there is room for hope: look here at a new (-ish) pretty boat



"http://www.yachteleonora.com/CFDOCS/cmsout/admin/index.cfm?GroupID=128&meID=41&Lang=2"

 

[dt4134]

IMHO the ugliest must be the Elan Impression range. Which is ironic as the normal sporty Elans do look good.

There are some really stylish modern boats though, from people like X-Yachts, Arcona, Finngulf etc. They just come with a bigger price tag.

I guess it has always been like that. Ok the Westerlys aren't bug ugly, but they're not sleek and stylish either. And Moodys look like overfed Sigmas.

 

[Redwing228]

Hull volume

IMHO, as a traditional boat lover, the emphasis with modern 'high-hipped' yachts seems to be to get the greatest hull volume (and headroom) out of a given waterline length. Sailing performance seems to be a secondary consideration - just fit bigger and bigger auxiliary engines..

 

[xyachtdave]

Answer to your question...... they are marina boats bought at the boat show because they were bigger inside. Look round the 'buyers' at Southampton (and especially Excel) and you get the idea. Straight down the companionway steps to look at space and how many heads and TV's it can fit.
The rig, sails, keel etc? Who cares, it's not going anywhere anyway once the delivery crew have gone!

 

[pagoda]

IMHO, as a traditional boat lover, the emphasis with modern 'high-hipped' yachts seems to be to get the greatest hull volume (and headroom) out of a given waterline length. Sailing performance seems to be a secondary consideration - just fit bigger and bigger auxiliary engines..

As one who sails a rather lower in the water / lots of wood / older Jeanneau I have slowly ceased to be amazed when meeting modern boats motoring when I am sailing. My son & I had a cracking sail about a week ago F5-F6 from Port Bannatyne on Bute to Ardrossan. Almost on the nose - not quite. Almost everybody else was in bare sticks???
Does nobody sail unless the wind is with them and less than a 5???
Can nobody park these high- freeboard boats without XX horsepower and thrusters? I just put out more fenders and try harder

Graeme

 

[Networks]

Being a newcomer to sailing a couple of years ago and knowing very little about boat design my partner and I purchased one of these high sided boats. It did have the advantage of the internal space, which helped get my partner to try sailing with me.
We have both now learnt a little more, and subect to the bank balance allowing would not buy the same again.
Having said that, we like Pagoda find it amazing the number of people that motor rather than sail, both in AWB and more traditional boats. We sail in all conditions, it is a last resort to turn on the engine.
Parking these high sided boats is something you should all try before offering comments. They are not easy if you have any kind of cross wind, especially if reversing in a tight space were you cant apply enough power to stop the bow blowing round.
So, dont tar us all with the same brush, the high sided AWB got us sailing, we are learning all the time and maybe we will buy something different next time.

 

[johnalison]

As a rule I tend to find the generality of new boats dull rather than ugly, and beauty is something we will never agree on, otherwise we'd all be chasing the same woman.

I believe that I read that the current trend for boats with more freeboard is due to the need for builders to comply with stability requirements of the RCD as more freeboard leads to a higher STIX number. My impression is that my boat first marketed 20 years ago goes to windward better in a blow than all but a few new designs of similar size and certainly better than those referred to above.

 

[Ubergeekian]

I'm not a knocker of AWBs, not seriously. But wandering around the club marina this morning I couldnt help but notice just how ugly some of them are compared to the AWBs of yesteryear.

You and me both, brother.

Thirty years ago Moodys were the slab sided monstrosities - nowadays 80's Moodys look almost (but not quite) sleek compared to the walls of white GRP around now.

Having said that, we like Pagoda find it amazing the number of people that motor rather than sail, both in AWB and more traditional boats. We sail in all conditions, it is a last resort to turn on the engine.

I sail from Port Bannatyne, and I'm amazed at the cumber of people who motor through the Kyles, even when there's a favourable wind. Is the sailing performance of these things really so bad?

 

[Searush]

Right, if an AWB is an Average White Boat nad modern, and

an MAB ia a Mauldy Old Boat (or and early wooden of grp boat,

How about something like a GOB (Good Old Boat) in the American sense of something traditional, espousing old fashioned values?

 

[Quandary]

IMHO the ugliest must be the Elan Impression range. Which is ironic as the normal sporty Elans do look good.

There are some really stylish modern boats though, from people like X-Yachts, Arcona, Finngulf etc. They just come with a bigger price tag.

I guess it has always been like that. Ok the Westerlys aren't bug ugly, but they're not sleek and stylish either. And Moodys look like overfed Sigmas.

The 'stylish' boats you mention are all Scandanavian but you could also have added some of the Dehlers. But there is a downside; (I sail a Finngulf) the volume is much less below as the hull is an awful lot slimmer, while our 33' boat can sleep 6, it would be quite a squeeze, we have to keep folding down the table leaves to get about. The max. beam, freeboard and coachroof width is selected for performance rather than comfort below. You do get a high aspect keel stepped rig and sparkling performance but I reckon a 34' Dufour or Beneteau has more space than the Finngulf 37.
It is a different story on deck and in the cockpit though, and once you get going, with fantastic comfort, speed and handleability so the choice depends on how much time you spend out on the water and how many you want to sleep.
Would not change her because I enjoy sailing her so much, though sometimes I still yearn for our old Sigma 38, on it we had a cabin for the dog, just as much speed in most conditions and a lot more money in the bank. Trading down on size without losing performance was expensive and once you have had a certain amount of space you tend to miss it more than I expected; perhaps we should have gone for a Moody?

 

[shaunksb]

Horses for courses

So why do sailors buy these slab sided boats - they cant sail well with all that windage.

We have a 10m AWB that has served us well. Enough space for four to live on during an exteded cruise without much trouble.

This year a 500M + round trip to Oban & back from N Wales. Sailed most of the way even if we only had 6 knots sometimes and 30 Knots on the nose at others. Reached across the Irish sea under Spinnaker on way up whilst working on the tan & listening to the Beach Boys! We all remember a wonderful day & shower & a lovely dinner onboard afterwards.

Last year came second in the white sails class of our annual series racing event. Another few good days - they can't all sail that bad.

Maybe we should blame some of the owners not the boats for too much motoring but if its their boat its up to them.

Mind you, now that daughters off to uni, may consider changing to something smaller for a bit more single handing. Have seen a Victoria 800 I'm starting to fall for.................



.

 

[photodog]

I sail from Port Bannatyne, and I'm amazed at the cumber of people who motor through the Kyles, even when there's a favourable wind. Is the sailing performance of these things really so bad?

This takes us back to last weeks debate were I was pointing out my feelings that the normal training route for yachties... Ie Comp Crew/Dayskipper... dont actually teach people how to sail well/efficiently...

Most modern boats can sail quite well in my experience... if you use all the tools provided to the best of their ability... (In fact some sail very well...) Certainly I have only sailed one modern boat that I thought sailed poorly...

Some arent sterling... and often the sails provided on new boats are a bit poor... But in reality its the lack of sailing ability on behalf of the skipper which is the bugbear...

If they were better skippers they may have speced the boat better... or maybe have leant more towards something more moderate in its design.

So, I dont think you can blame the boats... its what sells... if you want to see more new boats centered on preformance and ability... then you need to train more new skippers to care about preformance and efficiency!

 

[Quandary]

Asking why people buy particular boats is a question that has no sensible answer. In my case my choice was anything but sensible, just emotion, as I have grown older this condition has just got worse.
If you take the question right back, why do any of us own a boat at all. You don't have to go very far up the sizes before it would be possible to have a couple of weeks summer charter plus another couple in the winter and still have some of what owning costs still in your pocket. You could go crewing every week for even less.
I am glad we are all a bit mad though.

I have to admit to being one of those guys that UberG. so deplores; if the wind goes aft or light in the evening I am happy to put the engine and autopilot on and motor home while having a beer or a G&t. I have done this ever since our racing days, its just a low boredom threshold.

 

[Ubergeekian]

How about something like a GOB (Good Old Boat) in the American sense of something traditional, espousing old fashioned values?

Sounds like a Victoria 26 - american design, too!

 

[fastjedi]

This takes us back to last weeks debate were I was pointing out my feelings that the normal training route for yachties... Ie Comp Crew/Dayskipper... dont actually teach people how to sail well/efficiently...

Most modern boats can sail quite well in my experience... if you use all the tools provided to the best of their ability... (In fact some sail very well...) Certainly I have only sailed one modern boat that I thought sailed poorly...

Some arent sterling... and often the sails provided on new boats are a bit poor... But in reality its the lack of sailing ability on behalf of the skipper which is the bugbear...

If they were better skippers they may have speced the boat better... or maybe have leant more towards something more moderate in its design.

So, I dont think you can blame the boats... its what sells... if you want to see more new boats centered on preformance and ability... then you need to train more new skippers to care about preformance and efficiency!

Agreed .... The manufacturers are following the market and building whatever is most saleable (not sailable). However, imagine for a moment how different their product lines would be if there wasn't an 'installed base' of 10's of thousands of boats with low topsides! By way of example, there are few takers for a brand new Contessa 32 (or Mystery 35), perhaps because you can buy a very good second hand one for a fraction of the new price.

Having said that, whilst I understand why someone would buy a stubby high sided 7 or 8m boat out of neccesity , I don't understand high sided 12m boats. Many designs offer no more useful internal space (unless you are 7 foot tall or 3 foot wide) at a huge cost .... windage + decks you cant step up onto (unless you are 7 foot tall)

 

[Ubergeekian]

Asking why people buy particular boats is a question that has no sensible answer. In my case my choice was anything but sensible, just emotion, as I have grown older this condition has just got worse.

OK, I'm going to stop you right there and take issue with two things.

First, the question does not have "a" sensible answer, but it does have many sensible answers.

Secondly, emotion is perfectly sensible reason for buying a pleasure boat. I'd go as far as to say that ultimately it's the only sensible reason - the different answers relate to different emotions.

Right, carry on.

I have to admit to being one of those guys that UberG. so deplores; if the wind goes aft or light in the evening I am happy to put the engine and autopilot on and motor home while having a beer or a G&t. I have done this ever since our racing days, its just a low boredom threshold.

Whoa. I'm not a complete purist here. Jumblie has a small clockwork motor made by Mr Yanmar which will trundle her gently home in flat conditions, and I confess I rather like the combination of engine, autopilot and good book to read in the cockpit on a warm, still evening.

No, my amazement (OK, disdain) comes from the large number of people I see motoring significant distances when there is quite enough wind to have them going just as fast under sail.

 

[Quandary]

Sounds like a Victoria 26 - american design, too! ]

Very pretty hull, but he might have spent another half hour on the coachroof?
Ducks!!!!!!

 

[SolentBoat]

My boat is a slab sided AWB (some would say a below-Average WB) and it's probably the best boat I could have bought for the purposes and uses it is put to.

Yup, it's a marina-hopper. But, guess what, I'm on the Solent and do a lot of marina-hopping. While I'd love to have the time off work to have the use for an ocean capable bluewater cruiser, I ain't ever going to need one while the sprogs are at school.

The AWB slab sides and high volume make it a pleasant place to be for the family. And, while that might degrade windward characteristics, it means I get to do a lot more sailing. And, for me, it's time on the water that counts not degrees off the wind that can be achieved.

So while windward performance isn't a negative in my book, windage when berthing is a sod for the helm and the precipitous drop to the pontoon is a bother for the junior crew.

 

[Bosun Higgs]

As a rule I tend to find the generality of new boats dull rather than ugly, and beauty is something we will never agree on, otherwise we'd all be chasing the same woman.

No, not at all. I chose my wife because she was huge fun to be with - and had a nice arse! But boats dont age like wives do. And one test for me has always been the look back factor - do you look back and admire your boat whilst rowing away from her?

Boats arent rational things. You cant make a rational story out of trying to get somewhere by wind power. It's a romantic story. An emotional one. It's the sort of thing you daydream about whilst stuck in a boring meeting. And for those reasons I reckon they have to be pretty. In fact I like a nice arse on my boat too!