Sail trimming & rounding up...

[andrewhopkins]

Cracking sail in the RTIR on Saturday but I really struggle trying to prevent the boat rounding up in gusts when beating.

I have the headsail in tight and a reef in the main with the main eased but to prevent rounding up the main is sometimes doing nothing as ive eased it so much!

I tried putting a reef in the headsail as well which helped slightly. Do i need a 2nd reef in the main ? Very few other boats had reefs in and didnt seem to be exhibiting the problem.

Anything else I should be doing ? Its a Bavaria 35, Bermudan sloop with a fullyt battened main and furling headsail (about 130%)

 

[Sinbad1]

Problem caused by the shape of the hull when heeled. (Wide bum, fine bow) Best to keep her as flat as possible and reduce sail area.

 

[rogerroger]

Andrew

I can assure you you weren't alone. We anchored in Osborne Bay for the afternoon and watched so many boats severely round-up / broach.

Having sailed up to Osborne Bay that morning in gusts of up to 30 knots we were a little surprised that all the boats we saw carried full sail - the only boat we saw reefed was Kingfisher!

The cause of so many round ups can only be down to being over-canvassed - the rudder just can't cope. Were you watching for gusts and preparing to spill the wind in time ?

What was it blowing around the south of the Island? How rough was it round the Needles?


Roger Holden
www.first-magnitude.co.uk

 

[andrewhopkins]

Watching other boats

The good thing about so many boats is you can see the gusts quickly in the way they heel over more. The downside is the water is chopped by all the vessels and gusts are harder to spot!

It was blowing very nicely on the south side. From the needles to St catherines was a beam reach with some trying to use a cruising chute with mixed results (I saw loads wrapped round the furled headsail!!). Round St Catherines it then turned into a dead run before hitting Bembridge for a great reach/beat to the forts.

I dont have a windguage on board to know what was blowing but it seemed F4-5 all day with strong gusts.

 

[Rob_Webb]

In such a modern boat the problem is not going to be a fundamental issue with the rig and/or mast position but will be a combination of sail trim and heavy gusts.

With a full size (130%) genny you are created huge rounding up forces even with a reduced main. Remember that to maintain boat balance, you really need to reduce sail area by evenly reducing both sails together. You can't get away with a drastic reduction in one and none in the other - althought the overall sail area might be the same in sq.ft the inbalance will create your rounding up problem.

Even when you have reached reasonable balance, one of the most effective (and least disruptive) ways to dump power and reduce rounding as gusts hit you, up is to snatch-release the kicking strap - particularly efective on a reach.

Also worth noting, but less likely, you can exacerbate the rouding up problem when beating if you have managed to weigh the boat down lower in the water with a serious dose of extra gadgets/provisions!

Rob

 

[rogerroger]

Re: Watching other boats

Sounds like you enjoyed it which is the main thing. Of course - with other boats around you're not going to see the gust are you and what with the dirty air...

Roger Holden
www.first-magnitude.co.uk

 

[bedouin]

The true answer of course is that you were over-canvassed - as indeed were we and a lot of the other competitors

The best solution is a smaller headsail - but we couldn't be bothered to change down. Dropping the traveller down the track also helps.

The other solution, which we adopted, is to pinch a bit, sail so close to the wind that the boat begins to "sit up" and you regain your rudder balance. For our boat that means keeping it at about 20-25 degrees of heal. I think that for us that is as fast as changing down the headsail (as you get another few degrees pointing) but I can't prove it and I would be a little worried about its affect on leeway.

 

[andrewhopkins]

interesting comments

Putting a reef in the headsail did seem to improve things. I wonder if I'd put a 2nd reef in the main and headsail it would have allowed us to get the sails in even tighter and consequently point higher, sail flatter and faster!

As I said, so few other boats had reefs in that it put us off the idea.

Sounds like we need a day out doing timed runs betweem marks with different reef combinations to get the best speed.

Also, we do have an awful lot of weight on board in the form of beer/wine gifts from friends along with outboards, liferafts, etc which im sure most racing folk would leave on the pontoon!

 

[Twister_Ken]

Mainsail is generally the primary cause, but too much heel also causes it by making the underwater shape asymmetric and lifting some of the rudder out of the water. Delta shaped boats like the Bavaria are more prone than more 'canoe' shaped hulls.

When a broach is incipient first dump traveller, then kicking strap, then mainsheet. Even then if you don't depower the main before the boat starts to heel, you may not be able to stop, at which point you've got to shoot a few feet of genny sheet to stall out the genny asap.

 

[Twister_Ken]

Re: interesting comments

If you want to leave beer and wine on the pontoon, just let me know which one!

 

[Rob_Webb]

Re: interesting comments

It sounds as though you are homing in one the sail-trimming solution so good luck.

On the weight, don't under-estimate the effects if you think you are a genuine inch or two lower in the water than bare-boat. I recently met a fellow Leisure owner who complained about really severe (almost debilitating) weather helm and couldn't work out why my 'identical' boat was so well-behaved - until he realised he was 4inches lower in the water because of hi comfort-creating 'extras'!

Rob

 

[EdEssery]

Reducing Sail worked for us....

Somewhere off Sconce we put a reef in the main and changed down from our No. 2 Genoa to a Self Tacking Jib.

As a result we stopped rounding up, the helm was much better balanced and we increased boat speed by 1 to 1.5 knots - during the post mortem we concluded we should have started the race with that sail plan. Major lesson in our first race in the boat - "Less is more"

We are fortunate enough to have a heavy No. 2 Spinnaker which we managed to carry all the way from the Needles to Bembridge Ledge without any problems. We were surfing at up to 10.5 knots off Sandown!!

Ed

Skybird - MG C27 K8452Y

 

[Buck]

We constantly trimmed the main on the beat up to the finish, including easing it right out as required, we did'nt touch the gib sheet except through the tack, sounds like your headsail needed pulling into the drum more, we did'nt reef the main at all, but we were on a J105 so had a deep keel and rudder which obviously help.

Buck

The thing about men and fish is one is always trying to eat the other.

 

[Buck]

Just as a matter of interest how much stuff did you stash up at the pointy end?

Buck

The thing about men and fish is one is always trying to eat the other.

 

[alant]

This 'rounding up' seems to be a common problem with Bavaria's. When previously discussed, it was thought to be the rudder - too small & stalling when wheel hard over. Even dumping the main down track (small track though) & spilling doesn't work.