Sail balance

[Daydream believer]

Depends on the crew and how good they are .. and the boat ...

I agree that in ideal - you would time the release etc.

But that also applies to the backing as we are not talking HOLDING the backed jib as done on some hard to tack boats - but initial few seconds - to accelerate the tack start to get through the wind ..
Its also a great help if you have rough sea and bow is pounding ... that can stop the bow without use of backing ...

The situation and boat / crew will make a big difference to what is best at that time.

That was my Saaremaa in Tallin Bay - romping past and winning (first over the line - first after H/cap correction by large margin) ..... guy on the helm - 3 years running Baltic Champion ... think he might know a bit about sailing ...

You may have done wel, against other boats but looking at that boat it does not look well trimmed to me. Perhaps it was the point at which the photo was taken so is missleading--However, I would have moved a couple of crew out of thecockpit & further forward. Not that a small boat like that actually needs 4 crew.

 

[Refueler]

You may have done wel, against other boats but looking at that boat it does not look well trimmed to me. Perhaps it was the point at which the photo was taken so is missleading--But !!

DB - you excelled on this post !! True to form eh ?

 

[Daydream believer]

I may have missed it, but I have not seen a comment re mast rake. My Hanse when new was so heavy on the helm that my wife could not steer it up wind. First fix was a new jib then re cut the main. Now I am on the third main & fifth jib
My furler used a fixed length forestay & the Hanse traditionally has a mast that rakes aft.
I have had 4 new forestays, each time moving the mast rake forward slightly at the top. I also played with rig tension.
The effect was to improve upwind performance considerably, as well as balance.

Last year I had new rigging & installed an adjustable forestay with a new profurl furler.
The mast is bolt upright & much better balanced as such. I can observe this by looking through a large window & sighting the front of the mast with the side of the window, whilst in a marina with the boat at right angles to the window.

May I suggest that the OP looks at mast rake & considers raking it forward a little. It will not damage windward performance, if it reduces the weight on the helm, as rudder balance does affect speed due to unnecessary drag. A forward leaning mast helps down wind performance in some boats.
A tired helmsman does not help performance either.

 

[Daydream believer]

DB - you excelled on this post !! True to form eh ?

Do you honestly think that the trim looked correct then?

 

[dunedin]

I think that is optimistic. One designer, possibly Chuck Paine, stated that a cruising yacht should be able to sail in 20 knots of wind, which I assume to be true wind, with working sails and with no more than 20 degrees of heel. I can do this in my HR34 but my friend with a Bav34 couldn't, and nor could many other boats of this size I have met. I think that Paine was referring to somewhat larger yachts and I doubt if any boats in the 25' range could do it unless with a very small sail area.

He might have said that …. but many people have said many things and doesn’t necessary make it right.
Any fool can build a boat that doesn’t need to reef in 20 knots True, or even 30 knots True. Just put a smaller rig on it. But then will sail like a slug in light winds. To any such boat a bigger rig is likely to improve it all round, and for a well setup boat reefing at 15-18 knots True should only take seconds.

 

[Refueler]

Do you honestly think that the trim looked correct then?

Go on .. interested to read your version of what you see ......

Don't forget that we were stomping on past others - that photo was taken by the 2nd placed boat as we passed her ... AND that helmsman on my boat is a 3year consecutive champion ....

So - go on then give it yer best !!

 

[Daydream believer]

Go on .. interested to read your version of what you see ......

Don't forget that we were stomping on past others - that photo was taken by the 2nd placed boat as we passed her ... AND that helmsman on my boat is a 3year consecutive champion ....

So - go on then give it yer best !!

Just looks as if it is loaded by the stern & needs trimming forward a bit. Has SFA to do with the helm.
Is it really meant to sail with all those crew sitting in the cockpit on such a small boat?
My experience of smaller yachts is that they point better slightly bow down. Perhaps that boat likes dragging its a..se.
But it was only an observation & I may well be wrong. Others may wish to comment.

 

[johnalison]

Re #85. As an American, I think he was talking about yachts of 45’ plus as a cruising boat, which makes his figures about right. My 34 is not a flyer but actually goes well in lighter winds, having a decent rig and low wetted surface. I agree that reefing should be easy, but a boat that will stand up to moderate winds is more relaxing to sail.

 

[Refueler]

Just looks as if it is loaded by the stern & needs trimming forward a bit. Has SFA to do with the helm.
Is it really meant to sail with all those crew sitting in the cockpit on such a small boat?
My experience of smaller yachts is that they point better slightly bow down. Perhaps that boat likes dragging its a..se.
But it was only an observation & I may well be wrong. Others may wish to comment.

Arrrrr ... why didn;t you say that first ... there's me looking at sheeting angles / leech's ... tiller angle etc etc.

For majority of the race - Alex was fwd of midships making sure the many tacks were clean and with myself midships watching for marks etc as tactician. Yuri was on lines in cockpit ...

But the boat was not 'dragging her a***' ... she had fine lines aft and with her pitching - the photo has obviously exaggerated the look.

Few seconds later ...

The photo was only a very small part of the race ...

The Annual race was based on the 1980 Olympics .... organised by the Club sited at Pirita .. the huge 'light-bulb' score board was still there ...

This is an original 1980 Olympics Race Chart for the events at Tallinn Bay ... sadly sometime after I sold the boat and left Tallinn - I have lost the chart ... maybe its somewhere folded in the many boxes I have from moving around ...

 

[Daydream believer]

Yes, there is quite a big quarter wave pitching up from the stern in that last picture that is actually causing drag. As I understand it (I may well be wrong & it is only an observation) designers try to eliminate that whilst still trying to get a clean run off the stern.
Genny halyard looks a bit slack!!

 

[johnalison]

Yes, there is quite a big quarter wave pitching up from the stern in that last picture that is actually causing drag. As I understand it (I may well be wrong & it is only an observation) designers try to eliminate that whilst still trying to get a clean run off the stern.
Genny halyard looks a bit slack!!

What do you expect from someone who learned his sailing in the wheelhouse of a ship?

I think that wave drag is something that designers have learned to overcome, and those of us with older boats have to live with. I once watched a larger boat cream past us downwind with about a F7 behind us and the remarkable thing was that it made virtually no wake.

 

[Refueler]

On yer bikes guys ....

No points to gain here guys ....

And for Dear John ... I was sailing dinghys and yachts from the age of 5 ..... been yottie all my life ... racing / cruising ... pottering .....

Typical Forum ... there's always the smart a***s

 

[fredrussell]

Typical Forum ... there's always the smart a***s

Not to be a smart ars but…

 

[Refueler]

Not to be a smart ars but…

We all have our moments ... ALL ... no exceptions

 

[Daydream believer]

''Deleted to avoid wind up

 

[johnalison]

''Deleted to avoid wind up

I thought that was what this thread was about.

 

[Daydream believer]

I thought that was what this thread was about.

Problem is that some people cannot take a wind up

 

[Refueler]

Problem is that some people cannot take a wind up

Just to answer that ..

Problem is - you claim its a wind up when you have failed in intent. Its blatantly obvious. Seen so often in forums. You are not the only one.

The other is the use of 'smilies' to try and 'smile' away the failed prior.