Sail balance

[Refueler]

Poor Guy ... Vik is now inundated with so many posts - many biased to their boat - their style of sailing etc ....

Jag 25 ... not the most sophisticated technical boat ... but no slouch either if sailed well.

As I posted earlier : "
There's plenty talk about rudder area ... ease this .. ease that ... at end of day - you have a 70's - 80's boat that will no doubt have baggy sails ...

The trick now is to go out and 'play with sail areas and sheeting - find out what YOUR boat needs to help ..

No two boats will be same even if exact same models ... each will be loaded differently .. carrying different weights of gear ...

Time spent trying out different combo's of settings will pay off handsomely .. getting you in tune with your boat and can actually be an enjoyable exercise instead of just going out for a sail !"

If Vik can find someone in the Club or Marina that can go out with him - who has more experience of sail sets ... that would be a good start. We all learn from an old hand (some younger than I care to admit!) .. then build our own on that basis. There's nothing like 'hands on' .. we can read all the books ... read all the posts etc. - but actually out there is the best way ..

There's a run of posts about tacking .. now that really can lead to a number of different approaches .. but I have to suggest that one factor that I find applies to most boats - is the backing of genny / jib to 1. Get that bow through the wind as quickly and cleanly as possible avoiding getting in 'irons' ... 2. Stop the clew attachment or sheets getting caught up ....
Once 'learnt' it can become a quick and painless tack action ... my 25 - if you don't do this backing - 3x out 5 - you will need to clear the clew or sheets to complete .. it doesn't slow or impede the boat as flogging sail would ..

But that now is a good illustration of my first point ... each boat / owner has their way.

 

[flaming]

Poor Guy ... Vik is now inundated with so many posts - many biased to their boat - their style of sailing etc ....

Jag 25 ... not the most sophisticated technical boat ... but no slouch either if sailed well.

As I posted earlier : "
There's plenty talk about rudder area ... ease this .. ease that ... at end of day - you have a 70's - 80's boat that will no doubt have baggy sails ...

The trick now is to go out and 'play with sail areas and sheeting - find out what YOUR boat needs to help ..

No two boats will be same even if exact same models ... each will be loaded differently .. carrying different weights of gear ...

Time spent trying out different combo's of settings will pay off handsomely .. getting you in tune with your boat and can actually be an enjoyable exercise instead of just going out for a sail !"

If Vik can find someone in the Club or Marina that can go out with him - who has more experience of sail sets ... that would be a good start. We all learn from an old hand (some younger than I care to admit!) .. then build our own on that basis. There's nothing like 'hands on' .. we can read all the books ... read all the posts etc. - but actually out there is the best way ..

There's a run of posts about tacking .. now that really can lead to a number of different approaches .. but I have to suggest that one factor that I find applies to most boats - is the backing of genny / jib to 1. Get that bow through the wind as quickly and cleanly as possible avoiding getting in 'irons' ... 2. Stop the clew attachment or sheets getting caught up ....
Once 'learnt' it can become a quick and painless tack action ... my 25 - if you don't do this backing - 3x out 5 - you will need to clear the clew or sheets to complete .. it doesn't slow or impede the boat as flogging sail would ..

But that now is a good illustration of my first point ... each boat / owner has their way.

The basic principals of how to reduce weather helm don't really change from boat to boat. The advice he's been given is generally sound, what he decides to make use of is entirely up to him.

 

[Refueler]

The basic principals of how to reduce weather helm don't really change from boat to boat. The advice he's been given is generally sound, what he decides to make use of is entirely up to him.

I agree that the BASIC advice given is pretty universal ... its the additional that brings in the bias of boat / personal setup style ..

Do I not follow such basic in my posts ?

 

[flaming]

I agree that the BASIC advice given is pretty universal ... its the additional that brings in the bias of boat / personal setup style ..

Do I not follow such basic in my posts ?

I'm in no way criticising the advice you have offered. It's pretty sound.

You do seem to be criticising those who have gone into more detail. Not sure I agree completely with you there, though the suggestions to mess about with rudder area etc are really not necessary.

 

[Refueler]

I'm in no way criticising the advice you have offered. It's pretty sound.

You do seem to be criticising those who have gone into more detail. Not sure I agree completely with you there, though the suggestions to mess about with rudder area etc are really not necessary.

I feel that guy is asking for advice and help ... which like most forum threads gets answered and then bogs down in extra unnecessary additional that IMHO can risk adding complexity ...

 

[dansaskip]

Your link is broken, leads elsewhere.

Actually I don't want a link there and not to Amazon anyway- there are plenty of other bookshops to use instead

 

[Vik]

The basic principals of how to reduce weather helm don't really change from boat to boat. The advice he's been given is generally sound, what he decides to make use of is entirely up to him.

I think you are both right guys.
There is additional information maybe unnecessary, so many details, sails trim, Rig tuning, Ruder balance, water forces, etc etc, that could be now daunting to find a right answer That then expanded to my tacking techniques
I can pick things what are more basic advice and what are more unnecessary information. But all adds value. I won't go changing my rudder for sure - but now I know there is balanced and unbalanced rudder and vague idea how they differ. (before I did not even know this exist )

Having someone experience on board to sail would have been amazing help, I think it could answer a lot of questions.
If any one near Burnham on Crouch, let me know

 

[Refueler]

I think you are both right guys.
There is additional information maybe unnecessary, so many details, sails trim, Rig tuning, Ruder balance, water forces, etc etc, that could be now daunting to find a right answer That then expanded to my tacking techniques
I can pick things what are more basic advice and what are more unnecessary information. But all adds value. I won't go changing my rudder for sure - but now I know there is balanced and unbalanced rudder and vague idea how they differ. (before I did not even know this exist )

Having someone experience on board to sail would have been amazing help, I think it could answer a lot of questions.
If any one near Burnham on Crouch, let me know

Like all things in life - we are all STILL learning .....

I've been on boats since 5yrs old ... I'm now 68yrs old. Spent 17yrs as professional Navigator / Deck Officer ... still today involved with shipping .. owner of 4 boats ranging from 5m up to 11.4m .... there's a wealth of stuff still to learn for all of us.

 

[William_H]

Re delaying jib release when tacking. Yes every boat is different and while I might claim experience it is only on one little light weight TS. Especially in choppy water where waves are inclined to stop the boat in irons it is more desirable to get the bow around a bit beyond close hauled to enable acceleration/power on new tack. Perhaps to me more important than any tendency for the backed jib to slow the boat. In my case I am talking delay by perhaps 2 or 3 seconds. But in fairness it has a small jib especially in stronger winds and fractional rig so no impediment to jib sheets crossing the fore deck. I do a lot of tacking (racing). Perhaps 20 tacks every Sunday afternoon.
Anyway to OP listen to all and try things. Certainly less sail equals less weather helm. ol'will

 

[Stemar]

When helming a boat that tacks well, I'd pause the tack about 10 deg off the wind on the new tack so the person on the sheet could pull it in almost all the way by hand. It makes for a quicker tack than just getting onto the new course and having to do a lot of grinding on the winch. On our boat, which was less quick, not great to windward anyway and only 24ft, I'd leave the genny backed to get the bow round before we lost all our speed, and accept that I was going to have to use the winch more.

 

[johnalison]

Like all things in life - we are all STILL learning .....

I've been on boats since 5yrs old ... I'm now 68yrs old. Spent 17yrs as professional Navigator / Deck Officer ... still today involved with shipping .. owner of 4 boats ranging from 5m up to 11.4m .... there's a wealth of stuff still to learn for all of us.

How many tacks did you do as deck officer?

 

[Iliade]

I had a similar weather helm issue with my old quarter tonner and found, when close hauled, that the #1 genoa was so large and bagged it would cause weather helm even while the main was still in its bag in the forepeak!

 

[Refueler]

How many tacks did you do as deck officer?

Are you Certified Sail Lifeboat Cox ? I am.

 

[Refueler]

I had a similar weather helm issue with my old quarter tonner and found, when close hauled, that the #1 genoa was so large and bagged it would cause weather helm even while the main was still in its bag in the forepeak!

Yep - know it well !!

Its a game I play on my 25 ... sail is not baggy - well used - but its not baggy ...

Hoist and set off ... W/H ! I always let others sail the boat - let them enjoy and be part of the trip ... they ask - is this normal ? I say yes ... but do what you think will sort ...
They always drop one reef on main ... Hey - its still a lot !!

Ok I say - what next you think ?

The answer of course is to get the gernny rolled in a few feet - bring that CoE fwd ..... then she sorts

 

[Iliade]

Or in my case back then, drop & swap.

 

[Refueler]

When helming a boat that tacks well, I'd pause the tack about 10 deg off the wind on the new tack so the person on the sheet could pull it in almost all the way by hand. It makes for a quicker tack than just getting onto the new course and having to do a lot of grinding on the winch. On our boat, which was less quick, not great to windward anyway and only 24ft, I'd leave the genny backed to get the bow round before we lost all our speed, and accept that I was going to have to use the winch more.

Apart from the 38 - which we still have to try out various to get to ideal way to sail her for regattas etc ....

My Saaremaa race boat in Tallinn (2003 Baltsail Regatta winner) ... my Kormoran 5 ... my old Snapdragon 23 ..... my old Alacrity ..... my SR 25 now ....

They all tacked quicker and better controlled when jib backed ... the next sheet was as near pre-loaded as could be just prior to tack .. quite often only one or maybe two turns on winch.

 

[flaming]

If you are looking for best performance on the race track, then you categorically do not want to be backing the jib. All that does is apply the brakes and cuts the tack short, meaning you don't get to sneak the half boatlength to windward that a proper tack gives you, and you exit the tack slower. For us a good tack when we go into the tack with just over 7 knots of boatspeed is for the speed to not drop below 5. You won't do that backing the jib, the ideal timing is the release to be the exact same instant the jib loses drive.

What it does give you is security in getting the bow through the wind if you have a combination of low boat speed and waves. Especially in light boats.

The only time I ever call for a backed jib when racing is prestart when I'm down speed and need to turn especially quickly. In essence an "oh poo, this is not going well" type manoeuvre I think I did that once last season.

 

[Refueler]

If you are looking for best performance on the race track, then you categorically do not want to be backing the jib. All that does is apply the brakes and cuts the tack short, meaning you don't get to sneak the half boatlength to windward that a proper tack gives you, and you exit the tack slower. For us a good tack when we go into the tack with just over 7 knots of boatspeed is for the speed to not drop below 5. You won't do that backing the jib, the ideal timing is the release to be the exact same instant the jib loses drive.

What it does give you is security in getting the bow through the wind if you have a combination of low boat speed and waves. Especially in light boats.

The only time I ever call for a backed jib when racing is prestart when I'm down speed and need to turn especially quickly. In essence an "oh poo, this is not going well" type manoeuvre I think I did that once last season.

Depends on the crew and how good they are .. and the boat ...

I agree that in ideal - you would time the release etc.

But that also applies to the backing as we are not talking HOLDING the backed jib as done on some hard to tack boats - but initial few seconds - to accelerate the tack start to get through the wind ..
Its also a great help if you have rough sea and bow is pounding ... that can stop the bow without use of backing ...

The situation and boat / crew will make a big difference to what is best at that time.

That was my Saaremaa in Tallin Bay - romping past and winning (first over the line - first after H/cap correction by large margin) ..... guy on the helm - 3 years running Baltic Champion ... think he might know a bit about sailing ...

 

[flaming]

Depends on the crew and how good they are .. and the boat ...

I agree that in ideal - you would time the release etc.

But that also applies to the backing as we are not talking HOLDING the backed jib as done on some hard to tack boats - but initial few seconds - to accelerate the tack start to get through the wind ..
Its also a great help if you have rough sea and bow is pounding ... that can stop the bow without use of backing ...

The situation and boat / crew will make a big difference to what is best at that time.

That was my Saaremaa in Tallin Bay - romping past and winning (first over the line - first after H/cap correction by large margin) ..... guy on the helm - 3 years running Baltic Champion ... think he might know a bit about sailing ...

As I said, if you need the help in getting the bow through the wind then all well and good.

But in flat water and moderate winds all you will be doing is slowing the boat down and not gaining distance to windward.

 

[johnalison]

As I said, if you need the help in getting the bow through the wind then all well and good.

But in flat water and moderate winds all you will be doing is slowing the boat down and not gaining distance to windward.

It was routine on craft such as sailing barges, but I have never felt the need to do it on a cruising boat, although there may be some very old designs where it is needed.