Sail balance

[Vik]

Got to love where this conversation went

If you guys will carry on, I will forget how to sail

 

[fredrussell]

It was routine on craft such as sailing barges, but I have never felt the need to do it on a cruising boat, although there may be some very old designs where it is needed.

I think that might be the thing. Newer boats often being a bit ‘nibbler’ (longer waterline, fin and spade etc) will turn on a sixpence and not need help from the headsail going through a tack.

 

[Refueler]

Got to love where this conversation went

If you guys will carry on, I will forget how to sail

Don't worry ... its called 'points scoring' or 'Brownie Points' .... makes naff all difference for you ! Entertaining more than anything ...

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Ours will go through the wind without any jib backing, and sometimes with no grinding to speak of. But Flaming’s target exit speed is way out of reach even though our entry speed might be 8 or 9 kn.

 

[Refueler]

Ours will go through the wind without any jib backing, and sometimes with no grinding to speak of. But Flaming’s target exit speed is way out of reach even though our entry speed might be 8 or 9 kn.

Fishermans tales mate !! I caught one 'THIS BIG' ....

 

[LittleSister]

Just another thing - I think Jag 25 is same as Catalina 25 in USA and will have sold there in big numbers. Try going on sailing anarchy forum and starting a post like this one with ‘Catalina 25’ in title. You’ll get design-specific tips from fellow owners hopefully.

I recall reading years ago that the Jaguars/Catalinas were designed for the generally fairer weather that the USA (California specifically?) gets compared with what tends to be thrown at us in the UK, so maybe they are a little tender and repay early reefing.

The OP's description of arm stretching at 15-20 knots definitely sounds excessive.

I'm no expert, but my money is on any, or probably a combination of all, of:
- sails, especially main, hauled in too tight (a common fault IMHO);
- baggy sails;
- not reefing early enough for the boat/conditions.

 

[Refueler]

I recall reading years ago that the Jaguars/Catalinas were designed for the generally fairer weather that the USA (California specifically?) gets compared with what tends to be thrown at us in the UK, so maybe they are a little tender and repay early reefing.

The OP's description of arm stretching at 15-20 knots definitely sounds excessive.

I'm no expert, but my money is on any, or probably a combination of all, of:
- sails, especially main, hauled in too tight (a common fault IMHO);
- baggy sails;
- not reefing early enough for the boat/conditions.

According to that first post - someone before him changed to a bigger - I assume taller - mast - I also assume that when that happened sails to match the mast - NOT the boat ..

Yes the Jag 25 is a moderate light boat for the 70 - 80's ... but its not lighter than todays ... different hull scheme though of course.

 

[johnalison]

According to that first post - someone before him changed to a bigger - I assume taller - mast - I also assume that when that happened sails to match the mast - NOT the boat ..

Yes the Jag 25 is a moderate light boat for the 70 - 80's ... but its not lighter than todays ... different hull scheme though of course.

There was one in our racing fleet in the ‘70s. I think it was roughly on a par with boats like the Sadler 25 in speed and character.

 

[fredrussell]

According to that first post - someone before him changed to a bigger - I assume taller - mast - I also assume that when that happened sails to match the mast - NOT the boat ..

I think some J25’s had a taller mast from the get-go, sold as the more performance oriented models.

 

[Refueler]

I think some J25’s had a taller mast from the get-go, sold as the more performance oriented models.

Maybe ... Just checked my listing sheets and no mention of optional mast ... but that does not say previous owner changed it etc.

The point though - if the sails to suit the taller mast - that may mean the genny foot is longer and literally a sweeper compared to original smaller. It will also mean larger main ..

 

[fredrussell]

This from Wikipedia:

“There is also a tall rig version with a mast about 2.00 ft (0.61 m) higher.[1]”

Catalina 25 - Wikipedia

 

[Refueler]

This from Wikipedia:

“There is also a tall rig version with a mast about 2.00 ft (0.61 m) higher.[1]”

Catalina 25 - Wikipedia

Interesting ... I can see it for Intracostal Waterway .. many US based boats are built with IW in mind ...

The Catalina being a US boat and basis for the Jag.

 

[Vik]

Interesting ... I can see it for Intracostal Waterway .. many US based boats are built with IW in mind ...

The Catalina being a US boat and basis for the Jag.

So I have a question from above comments:

If mast is not original, mainsail is original size for old mast (hence smaller than what it should be for this mast), but jib is bigger to match new mast.

Would that cause issues ?

 

[fredrussell]

Vik, if yours had the taller mast installed when boat was built, sails should and probably are larger to suit mast. Easiest way to tell is to hoist sails on a windless day and observe how much mast is above the headboard of main. If headboard (top of mainsail) is within a foot or so of mast top, sail is correct size. Same applies to boom really. It doesn’t say on Wikipedia (see previous link) whether taller masted J25s had extra ballast. One would hope so. If not, boat will heel a bit more in a blow and that will make weather helm worse. Reef early. I would guess that if she’s heeling more than 25 degrees a reef is called for - but that figure is different for each boat design and my figure is just a guess.

 

[Refueler]

So I have a question from above comments:

If mast is not original, mainsail is original size for old mast (hence smaller than what it should be for this mast), but jib is bigger to match new mast.

Would that cause issues ?

As I mentioned earlier and another similarly ... if the genoa / Jib clew comes back quite a way aft past the line of mast - then the Centre of Effort of that sail may increase the weather helm allied to mainsail.
I would wonder why the taller mast if mainsail is not to match ... which brings me back to thought that a previous owner has changed the mast ...
The smaller main - may have been left to try compensate - as the CoE of that would be slightly forward of the larger sail for that mast.

On boats like this - the genoa can often be a greater driving force than the main ... especially if its full height / long footed ...

Not unusual that you have weather helm .. you ease the main - but even sheets let out - the W/H remains ....

My Alacrity - even though 19ft - is a similar set to a Jag ... and you could set mainsail and have quite reasonable helm ... weather helm only light to moderate ... but hoist the full genny and it could be more. I usually sailed her with the #2 or #3 being smaller and better balanced. Only Club events would I hank on the #1 ... yes she was a hank-on sail jobbie.
My Snap 23 was similar ...

My 25 - I have replaced my genny with a shorter foot and it has improved the helm significantly .. I can now set main and genny reasonably without the old need to furl / reef so much.

 

[Dellquay13]

I may be wrong again, but I thought the Jag was made by a UK co to the same hull design as the Catalina, because the internal grp fit out made it quick and cheap to build. No further connection and just because the Catalina had an optional taller rig is there any evidence the UK builder followed suit?

 

[flaming]

As I mentioned earlier and another similarly ... if the genoa / Jib clew comes back quite a way aft past the line of mast - then the Centre of Effort of that sail may increase the weather helm allied to mainsail.
I would wonder why the taller mast if mainsail is not to match ... which brings me back to thought that a previous owner has changed the mast ...
The smaller main - may have been left to try compensate - as the CoE of that would be slightly forward of the larger sail for that mast.

On boats like this - the genoa can often be a greater driving force than the main ... especially if its full height / long footed ...

Not unusual that you have weather helm .. you ease the main - but even sheets let out - the W/H remains ....

My Alacrity - even though 19ft - is a similar set to a Jag ... and you could set mainsail and have quite reasonable helm ... weather helm only light to moderate ... but hoist the full genny and it could be more. I usually sailed her with the #2 or #3 being smaller and better balanced. Only Club events would I hank on the #1 ... yes she was a hank-on sail jobbie.
My Snap 23 was similar ...

My 25 - I have replaced my genny with a shorter foot and it has improved the helm significantly .. I can now set main and genny reasonably without the old need to furl / reef so much.

The main reason for weather helm is being overpowered, resulting in excess heel and the CoE of the rig being way out over the side of the boat. Therefore if you've reduced the sail area by reducing jib/genoa size you will of course have made your weather helm better.

All of the things that have been discussed to remedy weather helm work principally because they aim to reduce the power in the rig. The reason that the mainsail is often referenced first is because that is normally the easiest to control in a gust etc. But note that dropping the genoa car back is also an early stage remedy to weather helm.

You only need to worry about something fundamentally wrong with your rig setup if you are getting very significant weather helm whilst not overpowered. What "overpowered" means differs from boat to boat, but 15-20 degrees of heel is a good starting point for max acceptable on a traditional cruiser type.

 

[dunedin]

Good simple summary from Flaming. And earlier the OP mentioned this happening in “16-20 knots” wind speed upwind.
It is not clear if that is Apparent or True wind speed, but most small boats, unless massively under canvassed in light winds, are better reefed upwind in 20knots True wind speed (unless racing with crew on gunwhales).

 

[johnalison]

Good simple summary from Flaming. And earlier the OP mentioned this happening in “16-20 knots” wind speed upwind.
It is not clear if that is Apparent or True wind speed, but most small boats, unless massively under canvassed in light winds, are better reefed upwind in 20knots True wind speed (unless racing with crew on gunwhales).

I think that is optimistic. One designer, possibly Chuck Paine, stated that a cruising yacht should be able to sail in 20 knots of wind, which I assume to be true wind, with working sails and with no more than 20 degrees of heel. I can do this in my HR34 but my friend with a Bav34 couldn't, and nor could many other boats of this size I have met. I think that Paine was referring to somewhat larger yachts and I doubt if any boats in the 25' range could do it unless with a very small sail area.

 

[fredrussell]

I may be wrong again, but I thought the Jag was made by a UK co to the same hull design as the Catalina, because the internal grp fit out made it quick and cheap to build. No further connection and just because the Catalina had an optional taller rig is there any evidence the UK builder followed suit?

It’s a good point. Easiest way for OP to know for sure is to hoist a measuring tape on main halyard and compare that figure to ‘official’ specs. If I was the owner I’d be doing that just out of interest really.