Sail balance

[Vik]

Hi all.

I have Jaguar 25, last year was my first season, was learning everything from begining.

When sailing close to wind in stronger winds, boat is being rotated so much that to counter with a tiler becomes very hard, almost have to pull on it. After an hour, hands would be sore. Initially I thought that's normal, but I am starting to think there's something to do with my sails.

I realized that mast has been changed to a bigger mast and head sail may be right size for this mast, but mainsail seems to be an original j25 sail, and foot is smaller then a boom by about a foot.


Could it be that?

If yes, how to understand if it's due to sails balance and how to troubleshoot?


And if that's the case, how to know what size sails I need to balance the boat?

Maybe some could advice or point to some reading material to learn more about sail balance.

Or maybe it's something else ?

 

[fredrussell]

Excess weather helm can be lessened by flattening or furling the main. If you have a large overlapping genoa try furling it to move the centre of effort of sails forward. Also worth trying freeing off the main a bit to reduce weather helm. How old are your sails? Baggy old mainsail will cause horrible weather helm - do whatever you can to flatten it. Kicker on hard. Ditto for backstay if it’s a fractional rig. Halyard and outhaul on good and tight as well

 

[Refueler]

As Fred says ... first is to reduce the main and flatten if possible. Next is to wind in a bit of genny to move that centre of effort forward ...

If that mast is a taller affair - then its quite possible that the genny is too long on the foot and Centre of Effort is aft.

My SR25 - you can reef main - but weather helm is still there .. but furl a couple of feet of genny and she sorts nicely.

Most cruising boats will react well to reducing both sails ... first main - then genny to balance.

 

[dansaskip]

What Fred says is right but my first thought is too much sail up. Also worth buy and studying a good book on sail trim. One I would recommend is

Illustrated Sail & Rig Tuning by Ivar Dedekam published by Fenhurst books at around £12 it won't break the bank. Other of course available​

 

[Refueler]

If cruising ... I prefer to set off with a reef in both ... instead of departing with full sail and then finding I need to reef ...

Much easier to start with reef - then if conditions are ok - shake reefs out ..

 

[johnalison]

Pressure on the helm is the result of dynamic forces and doesn't necessarily respond to simple answers such as reducing the size of the main, though flattening the main or reefing it would generally be the first thing to try. It would be a pity to have to reduce sail before the boat is hard pressed, so getting the adjustments to mast and sails right are important. It might be worth sailing with someone experienced who might come up with the right solutions. Ideally, when beating there should be enough weight on the helm to give some feel without being a strain or slowing the boat.

 

[johnalison]

If cruising ... I prefer to set off with a reef in both ... instead of departing with full sail and then finding I need to reef ...

Much easier to start with reef - then if conditions are ok - shake reefs out ..

That was the traditional approach, especially if sailing at night, but I find that with a single-line slab reef it is actually easier to take in a reef than shake it out, taking less than a minute perhaps, even if I am alone in the cockpit, and so will generally be quite happy to take my chances with the weather.

 

[Refueler]

That was the traditional approach, especially if sailing at night, but I find that with a single-line slab reef it is actually easier to take in a reef than shake it out, taking less than a minute perhaps, even if I am alone in the cockpit, and so will generally be quite happy to take my chances with the weather.

Fine ... but OP has a Jag 25 ... which is probably still with its 70's - 80's setup ... Even if updated with slab reefing - doubt he has single line system from cockpit ..

 

[Refueler]

Pressure on the helm is the result of dynamic forces and doesn't necessarily respond to simple answers such as reducing the size of the main, though flattening the main or reefing it would generally be the first thing to try. It would be a pity to have to reduce sail before the boat is hard pressed, so getting the adjustments to mast and sails right are important. It might be worth sailing with someone experienced who might come up with the right solutions. Ideally, when beating there should be enough weight on the helm to give some feel without being a strain or slowing the boat.

Of course neutral - especially lee helm is potentially dangerous as boat will not luff up in even of 'incident' ....

I can remember when Macwester shortened their boom / increased mast height to try cure the huge W/H they had ... it helped - but still owners learnt to set sails to solve. My SR25 is similar in carrying W/H ... mt Conq38 worries mr though ... it will steer itself - once sails balanced - she stays on course ! But she's built to race ... so I will have to go with it ...

That was just genny alone .. tanking along !!

 

[Bobc]

Try letting the main out a bit to start with.

The Jag 25 is quite a light boat and the fact that it has a transom hung rudder makes the steering load quite heavy (I used to have a Jag 25 btw.)

The more the boat heels over, the more it will try to spin up into wind, so try to sail the boat a bit flatter (reef sooner). You may find that letting the main out a bit helps, simply as it won't load up as much. If this makes a difference, try putting a reef into it.

You really want the tiller to be in the middle of the boat. If you are pulling it up to you, you are basically putting the brakes on and making everything a lot worse. Sometimes less is more (when it comes to sail area).

 

[B27]

My boat is fairly well balanced in light airs with full rig, but when it gets windier, it's better to have a reef in.
When thinking about 'balancing the centre of the rig against the centre of the hull', you need to realise that these 'centres' move around as the boat heels, or speeds up or the wind changes.
I would suggest the OP just tries a reef, unless the sail is obviously a poor shape.

There is a certain amount you can do with outhaul, luff tension/cunningham, kicker, traveller and so forth, and there's definitely a factor that tired old sails don't help.. But a decent slab reef is the easy way to make a big difference.

More so, it seems on a bilge keeler.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Simply being heeled, the underwater shape changes giving weather helm. Getting your crew to sit on the weather side helps a lot with that, especially on smaller, lighter boats. Besides, it’s exciting, and faster, as long as it’s not too wet.

 

[Refueler]

My boat is fairly well balanced in light airs with full rig, but when it gets windier, it's better to have a reef in.
When thinking about 'balancing the centre of the rig against the centre of the hull', you need to realise that these 'centres' move around as the boat heels, or speeds up or the wind changes.
I would suggest the OP just tries a reef, unless the sail is obviously a poor shape.

There is a certain amount you can do with outhaul, luff tension/cunningham, kicker, traveller and so forth, and there's definitely a factor that tired old sails don't help.. But a decent slab reef is the easy way to make a big difference.

More so, it seems on a bilge keeler.

My 25 BK 'r ... if I put that first reef in main and furl a touch of genny - she often increases STW .... and WH reduces .... (in moderate winds).

 

[Vik]

Thank you all for answers. Its a lot of things thought.
My sails are old, but don't seemed to be baggy, or maybe I don't understand how flat they should be.

When I say stronger winds, I meant 16-20 knots, I wouldn't think I should have reefed at such winds.

When I am saying WH is strong - I mean if I put autopilot on - it would break it.

I have cut a short video of sails, I think wind was 15-18 knots that day, this is one of those sails when hand would hurt after few hours. Maybe could give some indication whats wrong.

Please ignore shabby sails, they worked, thats how they came from previous owner, I have tidied them up a bit since

 

[wonkywinch]

What Fred says is right but my first thought is too much sail up. Also worth buy and studying a good book on sail trim. One I would recommend is

Illustrated Sail & Rig Tuning by Ivar Dedekam published by Fenhurst books at around £12 it won't break the bank. Other of course available​

Your link is broken, leads elsewhere. This works - https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1898660670

Except I clicked on that and it said "You last purchased this item on 6 Sep 2020". I better go and look in the study for it!

 

[Vik]

Your link is broken, leads elsewhere. This works - https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1898660670

Except I clicked on that and it said "You last purchased this item on 6 Sep 2020". I better go and look in the study for it!

Thank You, I bought the book, I am sure will learn a lot

 

[Bobc]

Thank you all for answers. Its a lot of things thought.
My sails are old, but don't seemed to be baggy, or maybe I don't understand how flat they should be.

When I say stronger winds, I meant 16-20 knots, I wouldn't think I should have reefed at such winds.

When I am saying WH is strong - I mean if I put autopilot on - it would break it.

I have cut a short video of sails, I think wind was 15-18 knots that day, this is one of those sails when hand would hurt after few hours. Maybe could give some indication whats wrong.

Please ignore shabby sails, they worked, thats how they came from previous owner, I have tidied them up a bit since

Take a reef in the mainsail. You will find that the boat sails flatter and is more balanced.

 

[johnalison]

Thank you all for answers. Its a lot of things thought.
My sails are old, but don't seemed to be baggy, or maybe I don't understand how flat they should be.

When I say stronger winds, I meant 16-20 knots, I wouldn't think I should have reefed at such winds.

When I am saying WH is strong - I mean if I put autopilot on - it would break it.

I have cut a short video of sails, I think wind was 15-18 knots that day, this is one of those sails when hand would hurt after few hours. Maybe could give some indication whats wrong.

Please ignore shabby sails, they worked, thats how they came from previous owner, I have tidied them up a bit since

Many larger boats will start reefing at an apparent wind of over 15 knots, so I shouldn't be concerned about that. I've not sailed a Jaguar and although it appears to be a sound design and has a good reputation its small size (compared to many current boats - I have had even smaller boats myself) makes it more sensitive. Wind pressure rises according to the square of a boat's length, while the boat's weight, and to some extent its stability goes by the cube, which is why model yachts get easily flattened. My 34 has a lead keel of 40% ballast and a small jib, so that I don't reef until well over 20 knots, but 15 kn + is not unreasonable.

 

[Dellquay13]

Thank you all for answers. Its a lot of things thought.
My sails are old, but don't seemed to be baggy, or maybe I don't understand how flat they should be.

When I say stronger winds, I meant 16-20 knots, I wouldn't think I should have reefed at such winds.

When I am saying WH is strong - I mean if I put autopilot on - it would break it.

I replaced the sails and standing rigging on my 24’ Foxhound masthead sloop with a smallish main and 120% Genoa last year. Before it was very tender heeling near the toe rail with heavy W/H at 14kts of wind and needed the main reefing.
With brand new sails I find it heels much less and still needs the first reef in the main at 16kts wind, but it sails much flatter and faster and with only a little W/H when that first reef goes in.

Other sailors may think I look like a wuss reefing so early, but the boat benefits from it.

 

[Vik]

Understood, I will play with reefs.
For some reasons I had an idea that even when healed, tiller should have relatively small WH and be easy to stay in the middle. Without boat being turned.
It's on hard at the moment while doing some preseason repairs, once back in water will try to play with reefs to see how she feels.