Sail balance

[fjcruiserdxb]

You need to keep a bubble (bit of sail by the mast) by playing the mainsheet-release in a puff and sheet in to a bubble in a lull. That way the boat goes in a straight line. Also, crew forward upwind as in higher winds, centre of effort moves aft. Check your rig tension before sailing. If you expect strong winds, rig should be tighter. I am not familiar with the Jaguar 25. If you have an adjustable backstay, you can tighten in puffs (depower the main) and release a bit in lull. Don't forget to release backstay downwind otherwise your mast could break.
I prefer this over reefing as long as it works and the boat responds well. Problem with reefing is to get it right you need to adjust 2 sails to perfection to keep the centre of effort forward. With the bubble, all you have to do is control the main (your jib must be as flat as possible upwind). HTH

 

[Babylon]

I recall from my early days with my small heavy and long-keeled yacht, my surprise and delight in overhauling a pair of much bigger more modern fin-keelers in F5 conditions, with the wind slightly forward of the beam. Both were carrying full sail and in consequence were heeling significantly. I had two reefs in the main and slightly reduced headsail and was therefore sailing more upright with very little deflection of the tiller.

 

[johnalison]

Understood, I will play with reefs.
For some reasons I had an idea that even when healed, tiller should have relatively small WH and be easy to stay in the middle. Without boat being turned.
It's on hard at the moment while doing some preseason repairs, once back in water will try to play with reefs to see how she feels.

We tend to use the term weather helm rather loosely to include the weight felt by the helmsman, but it really means the angle of the rudder/tiller. Most of the time they are connected, but my current boat, for example, can carry a marked offset when pressed on a close fetch while there is actually no weight on the helm and the boat will track itself if the tiller is let go. When close-hauled things go back to normal.

 

[Vik]

We tend to use the term weather helm rather loosely to include the weight felt by the helmsman, but it really means the angle of the rudder/tiller. Most of the time they are connected, but my current boat, for example, can carry a marked offset when pressed on a close fetch while there is actually no weight on the helm and the boat will track itself if the tiller is let go. When close-hauled things go back to normal.

So if I am sailing closed-hauled, and boat is heeled, lets say in winds above 15knots, should it feel like I need to pull on a tiller to keep boat in straight line ? I need to pull so much that if I had to put an autopilot, it would probably break.

 

[wombat88]

Jaguar 25 has a transom hung rudder but is it a lifting rudder? If lifting and not down properly it will make for plenty of unwanted weather helm.

If fixed my comment is irrelevant!

 

[William_H]

Yes Jaguar 25 has a transom mounted rudder so any way the rudder is further aft than should be will give very heavy tiller loads. If it pivots ensure it is pushed right forward into to frame. If it is fixed then not an easy fix. However you might try on haul out making the rudder bigger by a few cms on ther leading edge so providinng more rudder balance. (rudder balance is area of rudder forward of pintle line versus area aft of pintle line.) (the area forward tends to balance area aft to a degree)
Weather helm can be caused by 2 different factors. In light winds when boat is flat then you can steer the boat by adjusting the area and sheets of the sails. So Pressure on jib sheets ease the main causes boat to turn down wind while pressure on main ease the jib causes boat to turn up wind. An effect more proniounced in some types to others and is all about centre of pressure of sails versus centre of lateral resistance of keel and hull.
However as soon as the wind comes up and the boat heels that balance effect is over whelmed by the effect of the drive of the sails going to leeward of the drag of the boat to windward. This asymmetry causes boat to try to turn up wind. Hence reduce area of jib reduces heel and reduces weather helm although contrary to the balance theory. With your large over lapping jib and small main sail reduce jib area which will move area of jib forward which does fit with balance theory.
Much depends on stiffness of boat. But I would suggest in 18 knots of wind going to windward sail reduction is normal. On my little boat I choose a smaller hank on jib at 10 knots and would reef and no 3 or 4 in 20knots. (and that is when racing)
Just one other comment on the small amount of video you posted. When tacking it is desirable to hold the jib on tight until the boat has turned through the wind. This backing the jib pushes the boat around more positively and means when old sheet is released the new sheet is pulled in rapidly without that mad flapping. Get your sheet hand to try it. Keen forward hands release sheet too early. ol'will

 

[Refueler]

So if I am sailing closed-hauled, and boat is heeled, lets say in winds above 15knots, should it feel like I need to pull on a tiller to keep boat in straight line ? I need to pull so much that if I had to put an autopilot, it would probably break.

There should be a small amount of pull to keep intended course ... if there is no need to pull - then you are neutral and in event of mishap - boat will not round up into wind.

There's plenty talk about rudder area ... ease this .. ease that ... at end of day - you have a 70's - 80's boat that will no doubt have baggy sails ...

The trick now is to go out and 'play with sail areas and sheeting - find out what YOUR boat needs to help ..

No two boats will be same even if exact same models ... each will be loaded differently .. carrying different weights of gear ...

Time spent trying out different combo's of settings will pay off handsomely .. getting you in tune with your boat and can actually be an enjoyable exercise instead of just going out for a sail !

Now I am sure someone is going to argue about this next point I make - but I come from shipping where semi balanced rudders are the norm.

There is good reason why near all yachts with transom pintle mounted rudders do not have semi balanced rudders.
1. Simple to mount and edesign.
2. Area ahead of axis / pivot line causes a different load on the mountings.

A non balanced rudder exerts force on the mounting purely as an act of turning .. the rudder face fights YOU via the tiller / wheel. The mountings are purely holding the leading edge in place and acting as pivot.
Now consider a balanced rudder with part ahead of that axis / pivot line - turn that rudder in the flow and - agreed the fwd section helps you turn against the flow .. BUT now you have area both sides of the mountings causing a force trying to rip that rudder away directly from the mountings.

Contentious viewpoint ? Not really ... just a fact of forces.

 

[fredrussell]

Just another thing - I think Jag 25 is same as Catalina 25 in USA and will have sold there in big numbers. Try going on sailing anarchy forum and starting a post like this one with ‘Catalina 25’ in title. You’ll get design-specific tips from fellow owners hopefully.

 

[Stemar]

Fine ... but OP has a Jag 25 ... which is probably still with its 70's - 80's setup ... Even if updated with slab reefing - doubt he has single line system from cockpit ..

For a boat that size, it isn't hard to set up, and would make a world of difference to ease of reefing - and safety. You don't want to have to leave the cockpit when it's time to put the second reef in, especially single handed!

 

[Vik]

Yes Jaguar 25 has a transom mounted rudder so any way the rudder is further aft than should be will give very heavy tiller loads. If it pivots ensure it is pushed right forward into to frame. If it is fixed then not an easy fix. However you might try on haul out making the rudder bigger by a few cms on ther leading edge so providinng more rudder balance. (rudder balance is area of rudder forward of pintle line versus area aft of pintle line.) (the area forward tends to balance area aft to a degree)
Weather helm can be caused by 2 different factors. In light winds when boat is flat then you can steer the boat by adjusting the area and sheets of the sails. So Pressure on jib sheets ease the main causes boat to turn down wind while pressure on main ease the jib causes boat to turn up wind. An effect more proniounced in some types to others and is all about centre of pressure of sails versus centre of lateral resistance of keel and hull.
However as soon as the wind comes up and the boat heels that balance effect is over whelmed by the effect of the drive of the sails going to leeward of the drag of the boat to windward. This asymmetry causes boat to try to turn up wind. Hence reduce area of jib reduces heel and reduces weather helm although contrary to the balance theory. With your large over lapping jib and small main sail reduce jib area which will move area of jib forward which does fit with balance theory.
Much depends on stiffness of boat. But I would suggest in 18 knots of wind going to windward sail reduction is normal. On my little boat I choose a smaller hank on jib at 10 knots and would reef and no 3 or 4 in 20knots. (and that is when racing)
Just one other comment on the small amount of video you posted. When tacking it is desirable to hold the jib on tight until the boat has turned through the wind. This backing the jib pushes the boat around more positively and means when old sheet is released the new sheet is pulled in rapidly without that mad flapping. Get your sheet hand to try it. Keen forward hands release sheet too early. ol'will

This is very detailed. Thank You !
Thank You for the tip in tacking as well. For some reason been taught to start pulling new sheet in once job starts flapping (looses any power) I should definitely try to delay it to have smoother tacking.
Once it is on water I will definitely test these.

THANK YOU

 

[johnalison]

This is very detailed. Thank You !
Thank You for the tip in tacking as well. For some reason been taught to start pulling new sheet in once job starts flapping (looses any power) I should definitely try to delay it to have smoother tacking.
Once it is on water I will definitely test these.

THANK YOU

I don’t entirely agree with William_H. The routine will differ between boats, but I wouldn’t allow the jib to back on a lightweight boat such as the Jaguar, because this will stop the boat dead in the water and it is important to keep the boat moving at all times. It is true that you can delay freeing the jib, because the apparent wind will move aft as you turn, but I believe this should be done as the sail loses power. With luck, and some coordination, it should then be possible to tension the jib with the new sheet before the wind fills it and makes the job harder. If you delay tensioning, the boat will slow and probably blow off course. The boat will be more stable when moving and for some reason seems to heel less.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

There should be a small amount of pull to keep intended course ... if there is no need to pull - then you are neutral and in event of mishap - boat will not round up into wind.

There's plenty talk about rudder area ... ease this .. ease that ... at end of day - you have a 70's - 80's boat that will no doubt have baggy sails ...

The trick now is to go out and 'play with sail areas and sheeting - find out what YOUR boat needs to help ..

No two boats will be same even if exact same models ... each will be loaded differently .. carrying different weights of gear ...

Time spent trying out different combo's of settings will pay off handsomely .. getting you in tune with your boat and can actually be an enjoyable exercise instead of just going out for a sail !

Now I am sure someone is going to argue about this next point I make - but I come from shipping where semi balanced rudders are the norm.

There is good reason why near all yachts with transom pintle mounted rudders do not have semi balanced rudders.
1. Simple to mount and edesign.
2. Area ahead of axis / pivot line causes a different load on the mountings.

A non balanced rudder exerts force on the mounting purely as an act of turning .. the rudder face fights YOU via the tiller / wheel. The mountings are purely holding the leading edge in place and acting as pivot.
Now consider a balanced rudder with part ahead of that axis / pivot line - turn that rudder in the flow and - agreed the fwd section helps you turn against the flow .. BUT now you have area both sides of the mountings causing a force trying to rip that rudder away directly from the mountings.

Contentious viewpoint ? Not really ... just a fact of forces.

Not contentious at all for me. We have a semi balanced transom hung lifting rudder, the mounting is very substantial indeed for a 2 ton boat. Lovely light helm still with feel, but machined from 8mm stainless plate, with 10mm bolts to hold the pintles on.

 

[Vik]

I don’t entirely agree with William_H. The routine will differ between boats, but I wouldn’t allow the jib to back on a lightweight boat such as the Jaguar, because this will stop the boat dead in the water and it is important to keep the boat moving at all times. It is true that you can delay freeing the jib, because the apparent wind will move aft as you turn, but I believe this should be done as the sail loses power. With luck, and some coordination, it should then be possible to tension the jib with the new sheet before the wind fills it and makes the job harder. If you delay tensioning, the boat will slow and probably blow off course. The boat will be more stable when moving and for some reason seems to heel less.

Do you then think I done it correctly in the video?

It was my first year and I was afraid of testing much, just kept to what works.

But I think I had this problem of boat stalling

And if it's filled in, once I tacked on right course, I can not flatten it anymore without a force.
I appreciate all comments and responses, they all add a little bit of knowledge or new thoughts.

 

[Bobc]

So if I am sailing closed-hauled, and boat is heeled, lets say in winds above 15knots, should it feel like I need to pull on a tiller to keep boat in straight line ? I need to pull so much that if I had to put an autopilot, it would probably break.

There should be a bit, but you should be able to hold it with a couple of fingers. Any more and you are putting the breaks on.

 

[Bobc]

Jag 25 rudder is fixed and has a semi-balanced profile (with the leading edge a couple of inches in front of the fulcrum.

 

[johnalison]

Do you then think I done it correctly in the video?

It was my first year and I was afraid of testing much, just kept to what works.

But I think I had this problem of boat stalling

And if it's filled in, once I tacked on right course, I can not flatten it anymore without a force.
I appreciate all comments and responses, they all add a little bit of knowledge or new thoughts.

I agree with others that you released the jib too early. The flapping jib is not only bad for the sail but adds a massive amount of windage that stops the boat. As it happens, I tend to release my jib early on my current boat because the inner shrouds slow down the crossing of the jib and I need to give myself extra time to avoid having to winch in the jib on the new tack, but your jib moves across easily, making a late release desirable as it gives the boat power as it heads to wind. Also, it is not evident that your main is fully in. Ideally, the boom should be close to the centre-line of the boat when close-hauled, though maybe you were not aiming for this at the time.

I doubt if the rudder is a problem in a well sorted-out design. I have sailed with and without a balanced rudder, and the transom-hung rudder on our Sadler 29 was never a problem. My current balanced rudder suits the boat and retains the feel that some rudders are said to lose if balanced. The chief disadvantage of a balanced rudder is that the boat is prone to rapidly veering off course when under motor and the helm needs continuous attention when under power.

 

[flaming]

When we are sailing to windward with maximum performance in mind the target rudder angle is 5 degrees of weather helm. This gives us a little bit of feel in the helm, and also means that the rudder is acting as a little bit of a foil to counteract leeway without being too much and becoming a brake.

If you have too much, then the quick and dirty fix is to ease the mainsheet. Do this to ride out gusts.

However, if you cannot keep your weather helm in check without allowing your mainsail to just flog then try the following.

Apply backstay tension
Make sure that your outhaul is at max
Apply main halyard tension so that the belly of the sail moves forward into the 1st 1/3 of the sail.
Ease the kicker slightly to allow the top of the mainsail leach to open slightly.
Drop the genoa cars back slightly to open the leach of the genoa - note this is especially important on fractional rigged boats with no or minimal jib overlap
If you do all that and you still get excessive weather helm then it's time to reef.

If you get too much weather helm without excessive heel - then there is something fundamentally wrong with your rigging setup. Almost certainly the mast is raked too far aft.

 

[flaming]

I agree with others that you released the jib too early. The flapping jib is not only bad for the sail but adds a massive amount of windage that stops the boat. As it happens, I tend to release my jib early on my current boat because the inner shrouds slow down the crossing of the jib and I need to give myself extra time to avoid having to winch in the jib on the new tack, but your jib moves across easily, making a late release desirable as it gives the boat power as it heads to wind. Also, it is not evident that your main is fully in. Ideally, the boom should be close to the centre-line of the boat when close-hauled, though maybe you were not aiming for this at the time.

If you're talking about ultimate performance, then yes.

However in this case as he exited the tack the genoa was sheeted almost all of the way in. In the situation of a small crew cruising then that is preferable to getting the perfectly timed sheet release but finishing the tack with a sail far from trimmed and a lot of grinding to do.

 

[Refueler]

Not contentious at all for me. We have a semi balanced transom hung lifting rudder, the mounting is very substantial indeed for a 2 ton boat. Lovely light helm still with feel, but machined from 8mm stainless plate, with 10mm bolts to hold the pintles on.

Tks C ...

I'm waiting for the nay Sayers !!

 

[johnalison]

If you're talking about ultimate performance, then yes.

However in this case as he exited the tack the genoa was sheeted almost all of the way in. In the situation of a small crew cruising then that is preferable to getting the perfectly timed sheet release but finishing the tack with a sail far from trimmed and a lot of grinding to do.

Yes. I think he did well to get the jib sheeted in, but I don't think the early release contributed to this. Our usual routine, which won't suit everyone, is for me at the helm to manage the jib sheets, with only two turns on the new winch to reduce friction, and when I've pulled the jib in as far as I can I take the third turn on the winch, when my wife hands me the handle to complete the job. The tiller will look after itself, with the occasional nudge if necessary.