RYA - some thoughts

[ccscott49]

Re: I to believe

Martin,
The RYA did not create the format in the first place!............Think about all those qualified proffesional small boat skippers before the RYA existed, who trained and educated them................... But it's obviously no point in discussing this with you! I'm a dinosaur!! I've been accused of many things in my time, but a dinosaur! By the way I'm very much in the "real world" so please dont quote that kind of bullshit to me! I won't call you names Martin, I stopped that at school! Merry christmas to you!

 

[aod]

Can\'t ask for more than That Can I?

Mr Hollamby:

I wish to thank you for your patience in this matter and I really do appreciate you taking the time and making the effort in structuring your replies.

I would be very happy for you to convey this concern to the RYA on my, and others behalf and I wish you an excellent Christmas and New Year.

Again many thanks

Richard

 

[oddball]

Re: RYA - some thoughts MOTORBOATERS

Hum ???? Motorboaters seem to be 2nd class peps to the RYA ! happy to take money for membership, courses etc but organise and represent us ? well answers on a postcard please to......

 

[cleo]

RYA - Question Time

I've 'cherry-picked' through this intriguing thread, and have registered that there's a lot of sound sense coming through - especially from 'kimhollamby'.

I don't know what RYA committee KH serves on. I did a several-years stint of that, and found at that time that the chairman made all decisions, apparently directed by a senior member of Council, and info'd the rest of us to that effect. Half-a-dozen meetings around the country each year, with nice lunches, and each with a couple of kilos of 'bumf' to read in advance. But, the Sail Cruising Committee was an 'lnfo' and not an 'Action' committee. Waste of time and petrol, unless socialising was the aim.... So perhaps the 'New Age Look' outlined by Rod Carr may not be such a bad idea.

I also found it was expected that I'd represent the RYA's needs and views to my Affiliated Organisation, rather than the other way round. 'If I want your opinion, I'll give it to you' was the tenor of the meetings. Many of the Council and Committee members I met had 'committee management and manipulation' as their sport, and not sailing. And several of the professional staff had arrogance as a major personality attribute, and not ability. In the corridors of Eastleigh, they talked about 'how many courses had been sold', not 'passed'. A commercial organisation, a Company Limited By Guarantee, with rather more income from trading than membership subscriptions.......Yes, I eventually resigned ( not the only one ) and got on with something more useful.

While I'm confident that there are now many volunteers and staff who give very good value, that institutional attitude really needs to be changed, root and branch. It is, however, the only RYA we have and it is probably better to make it better than to invent something wholly new. Triumph of hope over experience?

As for the 'hero to zero' nonsense, I have met quite a few of these, and been under-impressed. Yes, I've heard all the 'pro' arguments. No, they don't hold water. The scheme seems to be structured to provide sailing schools large and small with a supply of cheap-to-employ youngsters. Their capabilities in event of problems are seen to be marginal, and their self-confidence is little tempered with prudence. Their 'cockups' are covered up.

But it is the sailing schools which are driving this 'prostitution' of an otherwise sound and worthy system. Having listened to more than a handful of Principals over the past few years, I know whereof I speak.

For the record, I was earning my living with a sextant, and navigating over several thousand miles each year - some of it under sail - when the RYA first brought in its National Cruising Scheme. After another dozen years, I started keeping an RYA logbook. About ten years ago, I ran out of excuses and hesitantly presented for YM assessment and, later, Ocean. I also hold the Commercial Endorsement, and take the significant responsibilities very seriously. I've taken to teaching the Shorebased courses - like scores of others, putting something back in - and spend at least as much as I'm paid in enhanced resources and continuation training ( ICT and FAETC.... ). Also, many of us 'greybeards' were using electronic integrated quick-fixing navaid systems, with waypoints, hazard zones, intensive system checking procedures and system redundancy several decades ago. We don't take kindly to the arrogant presumption, quite frequently heard from staff members at Eastleigh - not one of whom, apparently, has any professional navigation training or background - that only they have any legitimate perceptions and experience in the determination of what needs to be delivered to 'newbies' and how.

I sense that the 'Apparatchiks of Eastleigh' would quite like to engineer a decline in the 'amateur' delivery of the Shorebased courses, confining it to about a dozen large institutions, with the sailing schools and other commercial deliverers of training taking up the slack. And that's where the effort and staff time seems to be focussed.

It would, IMHO, be a commercial error of some magnitude to disenfranchise 'the party faithful'. The activists should be encouraged, steered, and their energies utilised, for they bring in much income at very small cost. Yes, and also have their game raised. How many years now have the Shorebased Tutors asked at their Conferences for a 'Tutors' Forum', for the exchange of good ideas and sound solutions to teaching problems.....? When will the RYA provide this? Or is this something valuable that IPC could readily offer the sailing community? ......I understand that the opposition already have something like this up and running!

Perhaps that should be a topic raised with Rod Carr when he comes...... And I truly hope that this will not be like a certain Chief Constable's report to a County Police Committee - 'I hear what you say, but I'm responsible to none of you. So I'll continue to do what I think expedient, or convenient, or both.'

Long rant? That's the problem with strong conviction. But thanks for reading this far.













bilbo

 

[rhinorhino]

I think the idea of a RYA / RNLI / MCA presence on the forum or in a chat room is a really good one.

Some of the questions I would like to ask of the RYA are ( yes I have mentioned it before) ;-

1. What is the purpose of the YM exam? There seem to be three main possibilities; as a professional qualification for the industry, as a purely voluntary learning/testing exam for safer lesuire sailors and as a defence against complusory licencing. Which is the main objective? Are they mutually exclusive? Does each require the same type of exam, should The MCA / DOT take over commercial licencing?
2. What should the standard/s be for YM? A number of people have proposed the test is "Would I let this candidate take my family across the channel?" is this the correct bench-mark or is a better test "can skipper any conventional yacht under say 70' on any passage not involving a ocean crossing" or something else?
3. How should this be tested? A longer exam, a requirement for unfamilar waters? Where should the pass fail line be drawn, is it really a bad thing if some people fail? The RYA seems to take more of an overall view of the candidate rather than the DSA type view, that one safety error and you fail however good the rest of your test.
3. What is the role that days/miles/years should have in the ability to take the exam? Should there be stiff minimums, higher than the current ones, this seems particularly relevent to "zero to hero courses".
4. What are the core competancies that should be required of a candidate? Sailing, motoring, command, navigation (Traditional and Electronic), passage planning or more?

I would also like to ask the RNLI why they need so much in reserve and wether lifeguards are really what they are about.

 

[kimhollamby]

Thanks for the feedback.

I am working on a definitive date with Rod Carr and will open up another thread beforehand with a firm date/time and invitation for initial questions.

Likely timeframe is 14-15 of this month.

Regarding RNLI et al we'll see how this first one goes and take it from there but will keep your comments in mind.

kim_hollamby@ipcmedia.com

 

[NigeCh]

RYA Pre-Prep

Quote" The RYA is the controlling authority ... for all things boating." (Unquote)

Let your man aboard and let him answer that.

 

[Guest]

Re: RYA Pre-Prep

Hello Nige- where did you see that quote? My bet is that the RYA NEVER claimed to "be the controlling authority... for all things boating".

They do control yacht racing (under ISAF authority), powerboat racing (under UIM authority) and training standards at RYA recognised schools.

They don't, can't and would never claim to "control all things boating" and it would be absurd for them to do so. What they do do , and brilliantly, is support and defend the interests of all sailors, whether racing or not, under power and sail.

 

[bigmart]

Re: RYA Pre-Prep

I think you will find, if you read this & other threads on similar subjects, that many do not agree with your assertions as to the brilliance of the RYA's efforts on the behalf of all boaters.

Many say that the training schemes that the RYA manage have been devalued by their rush to generate revenue for the organisation at the expense of maintaining the quality standards. Personally, although there may be some validity in these worries, I am more concerned about the threat from over regulation which, I feel, will seriously affect the entrance of newcomers to boating.

Right now we need a serious defence against the MCA who see us as the ideal replacement for the funds that central government are taking away.

The attendance of an RYA representative on these forums has the potential go a long way towards pacifying those who are disenchanted with the service that we are currently paying for. I wonder whether the RYA are up to the challenge!

Martin

 

[kimhollamby]

Re: RYA Pre-Prep

Martin,

You'll see elsewhere on this thread that Rod Carr agreed to answer questions on a ybw.com moderated forum almost as soon as this thread came into being.

The likely dates are 14th or 15th this month...as soon as I have fixed the definitives I'll post more info.

Kim

kim_hollamby@ipcmedia.com

 

[bigmart]

Re: RYA Pre-Prep

Kim

I see that you are listed as an "Old Hack" where as I only manage to be "Regular".

Two questions spring to mind.

1) Where does your interest in the health of my bowels/ digestive system spring from?

2) How can I get listed as "Pain in the Arse" or similar?

I must say that I have been following the threads here, regarding the RYA and in other posts criticising of PBO, your dilligence in keeping up with everything over the holiday period is a credit to you. The clear, considered & extremely detailed responses to, what at times must have seemed like a deluge of disatisfaction, should be a lesson to all of us that fly off the handle at the slightest provocation.

BTW The only reason for my last post was to point out to Bacardi the level of criticism of the RYA which he seemed not to have grasped.

Martin

 

[kimhollamby]

Named and shamed

Answers:

1) Being keen on repeat business we are very interested to keep you regular;

2) I can turn you into a 'pain in the arse' any time I like but you have to work much harder for that accolade than your performance to-date (and no, that is not an encouragement to do so).

The original version of this forum software had a whole bunch of rankings from 'newbie' (yuk) to 'superhero' (double yuk) but our boring implementation is new user (up to 10 posts) and regular (11 prunes or greater). As for me, well I guess adding the old hack thing reminds me I used to be a proper journalist once upon a time ago until I became a virtual phantom of my past /forums/images/icons/smile.gif.

kim_hollamby@ipcmedia.com

 

[Guest]

Re: RYA Pre-Prep

It's not that I haven't grasped the level of criticism of the RYA, I have been reading the threads with amusement. But, as the ex-secretary of a club which has had a lot of help over the years especially from the Legal Section, I think it is only fair to give credit where its due. I know that a number of other clubs and sailors in the Bristol Channel area have also found them very supportive over the years.

 

[BrendanS]

Re: RYA Pre-Prep

I have to agree with your point. As a committee member of a club, the legal section have been very friendly and helpful.

 

[bigmart]

Re: RYA Pre-Prep

Perhaps that is the point. Clubs, which by their nature tend to lean towards racing or some form of competition get support from the RYA. The cruising sailor, who by his nature, will tend to be a loner, sees very little support from the organisation that claims to represent him.

Now you may leap into print & tell me that yours is a cruising club or something along those lines. I am generalising & I know that is dangerous but I am sure you will understand what I mean.

Whatever else you may say, it is clear that, the RYA are not getting their message across to, a large proportion of, the people they claim to represent.

Martin

 

[BrendanS]

Re: RYA Pre-Prep

Ooh! You are so far off the mark I'm not going to even correct you, other than to say that the club I am a committee member of is nothing to do with sailing, nothing to do with competition, and nothing to do with racing

Whether they represent me personally or not? I don't care. I'm an individual, and do most of my boating that way.

If an issue comes along that I believe passionately in, I'll make sure that my voice is heard and that I'm represented

For instance - I did a lot of delving into Solas regulations on my own behalf and that of my club, until I was satisfied that they had been suffficiently diluted in the UK by means of RYA and boating press pressure amongst others, as to be almost meaningless (anyone with sense is going to have some sort of passage plan, and you can do a search of these forums against my name and solas to come up with some of the sensible and practical advice the RYA legal people came up with)

 

[NigeCh]

It was a slight mis-quote

The quote comes from the rear cover of the RYA Instructors Handbook (Cruising G27/01) and should read "The RYA is the UK governing body representing sailing, windsurfing, motor boating, powerboat racing and personal watercraft, at sea and on inland waters"

The keywords in the above quote (c) 1990 RYA and published here without their permission are "governing body" .... ???? Who made them the governing body? ... or did they just assume that title?