RYA - some thoughts

[ccscott49]

Shouldn't we then have a federation of sailing associations, just like the federation of classic motor car clubs, to represent us all, then you wouldn't have one section more powerful than the other, as happens with the RYA which tries to be everything to everybody, but is seen by some to fail miserably. Then we could have a cruising association, racing association etc. The federation could still have a training role and speak to all sections to include what they require, including consulting international federations to simplify the qual;ifications. Look to the HAM radio guys they seem to mange quite well. I believe the RYA is too unwieldy and out of touch with it's core.

 

[aod]

Re: Why not a referendum by IPC...

I have suggested this to Mr Hollamby but he has elected not to make any form of reply at this moment.
I think it's a good idea and I would support such a move.

 

[halcyon]

Re: commercial endorsement

aod

If the authorities except the YM cert of competence as exceptable for commercial yacht skippers upto 24 meters, why are you shouting at the RYA.
Please shout at the people that except the qualification.

Brian

 

[charles_reed]

I couldn\'t agree more..

But I still remain a member of the RYA.

I have no argument with the concept of the RYA.

I have nothing but praise for the the rank-and-file of RYA staff.

My problem is with the self-perpetuating oligarchy who have commandeered the political overlordship of the RYA.
Unfortunately this must, to some extent, be due to the inertia of the members of the RYA.

I applaud Kim's comments and look forward to this dialogue, though my participation may be rather hit-and-miss as I'll be in darkest Bourgogne for much of the time.

 

[charles_reed]

What about the CA

Who do more to represent cruising sailors than the RYA?

 

[Cornishman]

Re: Here, Here nm

*

 

[alant]

Re: commercial endorsement

Don't think you need to do the shorebased theory to get a practical YM cert.
The whole RYA training system has these 'experience' anomalies. How can anyone be expected to go from virgin sailor to Day Skipper in 3 x 2 day weekends? (seems to be the expectation/demand of young city types attending weekend sailing school courses) Able then to undertake skippering a yacht with all the safety implications. For a YM 2500 miles in the 'Solent' or 2500 in the North Sea gives entirely different levels of skills & experience - which is best?
Yes Kim, the RYA are very similar to PADI - both sometimes seem to have a 'Put Another Dollar In' approach - each certificate leads onto yet another at a cost, sometimes without any apparent logic. eg the same YM Motor Certificate can be undertaken in vessels which are Inboard/Outboard/single screw/Twin Screws/Outdrive etc, but you cannot do so in a yacht with a keel! which you may have motored all over the Med(or get a sail to motor conversion without again practicing already learnt theory).
Still, surely better some lessons, even if not entirely learnt, than no training at all!! Or is 'fast-track' now the ethos of all in todays age. (remember, those gutsy guys skippering boats in 39/45 managed incredible feats without vast mileages or Master Mariners Tickets - we wouldn't be here to argue about the RYA otherwise)

 

[aod]

Re: commercial endorsement

I have no issue with the RYA other than they are the body (to which I have subscribed for over 20yrs) which represents me, us, we.

I had hoped that as Mr Hollamby clearly has influence, he would act as a conduit to the RYA and convey these concerns. In turn I would also have hoped that the RYA would investigate the issue and if appropriate lobby for change.

 

[Fergie]

Re: What about the CA

Charles
You are absolutly dead right

 

[TheBoatman]

Re: Thats made me feel bad

Colin
Although I started boating in the 60's I didn't start in earnest until 1970 I then worked on all types of boats from 1970 - 1980 just as crew I then decided I would go for my DTI Lic, I applied and got my assistant boatmans Lic, I spent the next 5 years working with local skippers taking fishermen out, trawling, potting and delivering boats all over the near continent (France, Belgium and Holland) because I had an RNLI coxwain as my teacher (amongst others) I also had expirence of being aboard vessels when the (now defunct) SAR Manston Airsea Rescue Helo dropped and recovered persons from our boat whilst on "excercise". I have helmed boats from rubadubs to 2,000 tons. I have delivered all types of boats to a destination without any problems. I have run into many problems during that time all of which I have (with much luck) survived and believe me I have stood on a pontoon/dock and thought "there but for the grace of God". I was taught and have learned that the sea is never to be taken for granted, when you think your going to win she will come up and bite you in the arse. I never breath easy until I'm in the pub.
Finally I had to sit in a room with a DTI inspector for 2 hours and answer just about any question you could think of, before he would grant me my licence.
So from this you can see that I would be very upset if now all you have to do is a course for 16 weeks and off you go chum, GO COMMERCIAL.
There is no way that someone that has done a 16 week course could be let loose as a commercial skipper. They may know the theory but they have no idea of the "actual" responsibilities of a skipper. To let them loose with an expensive boat and crew is IMHO criminal.
BTW I have just had a very rough add up of my sea miles and between 1969 and 2002 I have approx. 220.000 miles logged in all conditions
Colin, sorry I've banged on a bit hear, but it pisses me off to think that I struggled away to get my Lic and now all you have to do is a course and hold your hand up to get the same thing.
Geeezs I'm pissed.

 

[ccscott49]

Re: Thats made me feel bad

My boatmans licence came the same way, not with the experience you have, but the same three hours being questioned by a deep sea skipper, now harbourmaster, an hour on the colregs alone!! Then three hours at sea and river, docking and casting off, with engine failures on approach etc. But I had to prove to him I was afe to take out passengers, his criteria was "if I sign this piece of paper, I'm also responsible for your passengers" Thats was his point! I agree with him. I was the only person out of 20 he tested who passed! I took it seriously as I do all my sailing, but still enjoy myself immensely! The others who failed got the message after that!

 

[bigmart]

Re: Thats made me feel bad

With all this whingeing about the quality of RYA Examination Standards I am reminded of the Monty Python Four Yorkshiremen Sketch.

Soon there will be a post starting "Of course we had it tough"

It seems to me that the MCA don't have a beef with the standard of the exam, they just see it as a method of raising funds for their own good.

Check out the RYA sight where you will see their press release which states, according to an independent body in New Zealand, we have one of the best safety records with some of the lowest regulation in the world.

Proof, if it were needed, that our system works and we must tell the MCA to "Sod Off"

Happy Christmas to all. Especially the RYA & MCA, who must think I really hate them.

Regards

Martin

 

[TheBoatman]

Re: Thats made me feel bad

Colin
I bet you can still remember the examiners name?

 

[TheBoatman]

I to believe

Martin
I too believe in the RYA and MCA, after all I am actively involved with the RYA as an instructor and believe that we try to hold up the very highest standards as laid down by the RYA as to who should pass and fail. However that does not prevent me from airing my feelings/opinions.
I think there is a world of difference from doing a PB2 course which by its very nature is a "basic" boat handling course and having had a candidate pass it, it doesn't make them an instant expert on power boat handling. Likewise a YM course IMHO is the first step to getting more experienced with the view to going on to get more knowledge to hopefully end up with some type of commercial endosement.

At this point I would see a difference in each of the respective agencies role.

1) RYA should deal only with the leisure boaters needs as far as (all) training goes i.e sail training, power boats, VHF, first aid etc up to YM ocean.
2) DTI/MCA should only be concerned with anybody wanting commercial endorsements, meaning anybody skippering for hire or reward that also has crew which he/she is responsible for.

Whether DTI/MCA wish to out source this is up to them but I have found in the past that there are a lot of semi retired skippers that are only to pleased to pass on their knowledge and experience in the role of examiner.

Finally, your comment about Monty Python is in some way correct but unfortunately nearer to the truth than you know, IMHO there has been a slackening of the standards, 20 years ago you couldn't get a DTI boatmans Lic unless you had put in the sea time (min 5 years with an expirienced skipper) and spent 2-3 hours answering all manner of questions about different senario's to pass the exam.
Now it seems you only have to do a short course and you get one for free!
That leads me to believe that the other posters here are right and it now seems to be driven by the mighty pound and that there is a general "duming down" of tickets.
I will give you an example: ICC ticket, when I got my first it said " All vessels/All waters/Day and Night" now it just says" Tidal" whats that all about? I may well have never used certain types of vessel but it doesn't say that?
I have been, and will continue to be a great supporter of the RYA but they must realise that to subscribe to the "dumbing down" of tickets is not the way to go. If IMHO they want to be reckonised as a world leading authority then they have to get a grip of their ticketing standard.

After all if you have a commercial ticket you (we) come very much under DTI/MCA control in the event of any accident!

 

[ccscott49]

Re: Thats made me feel bad

I can, but won't embarass him here!! He's still a harbourmaster and a damn fine one at that! Also a little ouspoken.

 

[kimhollamby]

Okay if you think that here\'s another go

"Are you prepared to bring your influence to bear on the RYA and raise this as a real concern of many of your visitors."

I know the RYA is already very aware of the concerns expressed on several threads here. I will also bring this subject to the attention of the RYA group that I sit on when it next meets in January. But I think you also need to take into account that this is ultimately a government-controlled qualification and therefore it is also a matter for the DTR as well - both regarding the YM in all of its scope and also, if some of the posts here are correct, for higher qualifications solely in its remit also.

Do I see this as the most pressing problem in boating at the moment and therefore am I personally as fired up about it as some are here? No.

I do however agree with many of the sentiments expressed and would once again reiterate my support for the gaining of experience above all else. If that means upping the requirements at some levels and also perhaps strengthening the value of qualifications at intermediate stages to encourage people through the process then I am personally inclined towards support - but I speak for myself only and have not canvassed the opinion of editors or magazine staff here.

Ironically, it is one of the crown jewels of the existing RYA scheme that it has an experience requirement written in. Also the training programme, if followed through its logical steps, encourages people to get out of the classroom. In countries where compulsory 'training' is required this often isn't the case; in the Netherlands for example the exam for larger and faster boats is purely multiple choice at a desk - or was when I last checked.

Britain has consistently kept a low fatality record in leisure boating (including leisure charter) for many years - that's a fact, not a catchphrase; the biggest problem is how to get people to understand that the system is good enough to still keep deaths by drowning on boats lower than deaths by drowning in cars (or if you like ROSPA anomalies, the fatality rate at about the same level as crown green bowling and ballroom dancing). But we all collectively get our backsides thrashed by public opinion every time two speedboats collide or a yacht has to be rescued. That, and the public perception of boating as an exclusively rich man's sport, is of far more concern to me because we are failing to communicate what we have in terms of the positives and in a sound-bite age working out how to stake our claim for a fair press is incredibly hard.

kim_hollamby@ipcmedia.com

 

[ccscott49]

Re: Thats made me feel bad

Has the fact that we have best safety record with some of the lowest regulkation in the world, got anything to do with the RYA, or more to do with the responsible behaviour of the yachting public? After all it's not just the RYA who publish books on navigation and safety etc, in fact I don't have any of their books. But get all my information from elsewhere, did the RYA invent navigation and the Colregs, did the RYA have any input into the colregs? or TSS's or the bouyage system or anything else for that matter. No? but they do have a lot to do with racing/dinghys and the olympic squad etc. Which, I as a cruising yachtsman don't really give a stuff about. OI do really but I'm more interested in the cruising side of sailing, thats why I reccomend and support the idea of a federation of sailing activities, whch the RYA will never be, as long as they are ruled by a central body and think they rule us. Not represent us, rule us!

 

[bigmart]

Re: I to believe

My concerns are that boating is under threat from licensing & over regulation. This, I feel, is the matter that threatens our favourite pastime.

Complaints about the dilution of standards in examinations, whilst they may, or may not, have any validity are really a sideline issue. The safety statistics for Britain would seem to support this argument. The MCA do not seem overly concerned at the standard of the Yachtmaster qualification whether leisure or commercial. Why should we?

The difficulty that some had in obtaining their Boatmans, Yachtmasters or other qualification is a testament to their skill & fortitude. The truth is the current standards would seem to adequate & pitched at a level which encourages people to strive to improve themselves. Can this be a bad thing?

Some other posts here are keen to rubbish the RYA who, when you look at the development of the qualifiactions over the past decades, have really established a training course which fires the enthusiasm of those who participate in it. This is the reason why we have such a good safety record.

Those who advocate several voices for boating will only dilute our overall argument & we will be the losers.

Personally I feel the RYA should make their point much more strongly but that is just me. I look after the marketing for my small company & always use smack em in the face advertising methods. Subtlety is great for those who can afford it. I find you get faster results when you shock people into sitting up & listening.

Many would suggest that government has already made up its mind about taxing boating whilst others seem resigned to accepting licencing as beaing a reasonable demand.

Well I say the figures support none of this & if we fail to argue our case with sufficient force, then we only have ourselves to blame.

To the MCA I say. Its not a case of it ain't broke so dont fix it. Its a case of it works great so don't wreck it for your own financial benfit. The short term gain you will achieve will soon be wrecked because there will be no leisure boaters for you to tax!

Martin

<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by bigmart on 23/12/2002 10:29 (server time).</FONT></P>

 

[ccscott49]

Re: I to believe

The reason we have such a good safety record is not the RYA, it's the sailors! I really resent that statement, I have no RYA qualifications, never done a course, but I can read! Many of the people I know and have sailed with, would knock spots off a lot of YM's and probably quite a few YM examiners. Having an RYA certificate does not, repeat, does not, make you a safe/knowledgeable/experienced sailor, your brain does that!! How many people are quite happily and safely sailing around without any RYA certificates or schooling from RYA schools, I would warrant a shit pot full! The RYA sets the exams, but anybody can learn things parrot fashion to pass exams, that just takes memory, experience however takes time to gain the knowledge. IMHO.

 

[bigmart]

Re: I to believe

Who creates the format so that the majority can follow. Not the lone voice who can only criticise & seems to think that he alone is the arbiter of all that is good in the world of boating.

I for one would hate to be so insecure that I couldn't admit that someone else provided the framework for my achievments. It doesn't diminish my efforts any.

Come on move into the real world.

Dinosaurs are extinct you know.

Martin

<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by bigmart on 23/12/2002 11:00 (server time).</FONT></P>