RTI this Saturday

[flaming]

I've just re-read the Lion report.

It struck me that the rule that requires qualifying races for the Fastnet has the perverse incentive that it can force people to go to sea in marginal (or dangerous) conditions purely to meet the Fastnet conditions.

Nothing is ever simple.

Yes, that has struck me before. I don't see an easy way around it though. You need people to demonstrate experience...

 

[flaming]

Cross channel stuff is usually Cat 3, but with a Cat 2 liferaft.

Sort of. Cat 3 is defined as "Races across open water, most of which is relatively protected or close to shorelines." It can be with or without liferaft. In practice it is rarely used without liferaft.

Think of it as Cat 4 being "day races" Cat 3 "overnight races that don't go all that far from shelter" Cat 2 "multiday races that take the competitors quite far from shelter - Fastnet and equivalent" Cat 1 "Ocean crossing" and Cat 0 "Southern Ocean".

 

[Neeves]

What do you mean by this?

The weather and sea conditions were such that it was within the weather envisaged as possible of a Cat 2 race not a Cat 4 race in protected waters. Yachts were using tethers and jackstays which are not expected to be used for Cat 4 races.

Jonathan

 

[flaming]

The weather and sea conditions were such that it was within the weather envisaged of a Cat 2 race not a Cat 4 race in protected waters.

No, that's not true. And is a common misconception.

The Category of a race makes no reference at all to the weather, either forecast or experienced. There is no limit given or implied in any of the categories as to what a race may start or continue in. That is entirely down to the race organisers and is completely separate to the OSR system.

I have raced inshore round the cans in similar breeze to that which we found down the back of the island. I've also know cat 3 races cancelled for forecasts of similar breeze.

Whatever category the race may be run at it is entirely down to the skipper whether the forecast is suitable to start the race, and the conditions experienced suitable to continue in.

 

[Neeves]

No, that's not true. And is a common misconception.

Its a common extrapolation.

Which has some basis.

Jonathan

 

[flaming]

Its a common extrapolation.

Which has some basis.

Jonathan

It's still a misconception.

 

[Mark-1]

The weather and sea conditions were such that it was within the weather envisaged as possible of a Cat 2 race not a Cat 4 race in protected waters. Yachts were using tethers and jackstays which are not expected to be used for Cat 4 races.

FWIW I'm not sure the wind or the sea were that extreme in themselves. AFAIC, the reluctance to go round was largely due to the overfalls and perhaps wariness of proximity to a lee shore. Plus many of the (often rather elderly) competitors arriving at the turning point soaking wet and knackered and facing a commitment to quite a long sail with no stopping point.

Cherbourg->Portsmouth would have been safe as houses.

So I guess what I'm saying is distance offshore would have made the race safer, not more dangerous, so I'm not convinced that kit suitable for sailing further away from land would help much.

 

[Neeves]

FWIW I'm not sure the wind or the sea were that extreme in themselves. AFAIC, the reluctance to go round was largely due to the overfalls and perhaps wariness of proximity to a lee shore. Plus many of the (often rather elderly) competitors arriving at the turning point soaking wet and knackered and facing a commitment to quite a long sail with no stopping point.

Cherbourg->Portsmouth would have been safe as houses.

So I guess what I'm saying is distance offshore would have made the race safer, not more dangerous, so I'm not convinced that kit suitable for sailing further away from land would help much.

I agree - but its the combination, the wind, the sea, the overfalls and all of these making a lee shore more menacing.

The fact that multiple (?) crews were using tethers and a yacht had an MOB and simultaneously lifejackets automatically inflating seems to suggest these are not the conditions of a typical Cat 4 race in protected waters.

In a Cat 2 race, not unexpected.

Jonathan

 

[flaming]

I agree - but its the combination, the wind, the sea, the overfalls and all of these making a lee shore more menacing.

The fact that multiple (?) crews were using tethers and a yacht had an MOB and simultaneously lifejackets automatically inflating seems to suggest these are not the conditions of a typical Cat 4 race in protected waters.

In a Cat 2 race, not unexpected.

Jonathan

Sorry, but I disagree. Whilst "top end" the conditions do not move the category of race from 4 to 3 or 2. It's very dangerous, in my opinion, to suggest that they do. Whether to start or continue, and what equipment you might want to carry and use over and above the cat 4 minimum is entirely a decision for the skipper.

As an aside I have had lifejackets inflating during cat 4 races inside the solent on multiple occasions.
Got one on video....

So far, touch wood, I have never had an MOB.

 

[doris]

I very much agree with Flaming.
It becomes a problem when people assume that the rules will protect them. Rules can only look at potential situations, not every possible variation and combination of conditions. Hence distance from safety, refuge etc. being the driving forces.
Even down the back of the Island had one simply backed off a tad it would have been no more than a bumpy cruise. The over falls easily avoided by going further out. All down to the individual skipper and crew.
Actually we need the occasional biggie like last weekend to make all sailors think more about when it gets tricky. We all get complacent.

 

[Neeves]

So far, touch wood, I have never had an MOB.

Its a chilling experience.

Jonathan

 

[Mark-1]

The over falls easily avoided by going further out.

Not really critical to your point but is that right? They seem badly defined on the chart and go a fair way out. I'd have been a lot happier to go around if I'd been confident avoiding the overfalls was pretty easy.

 

[flaming]

Presumably the blue Dufour 40 being hit by the wave and rounding up at 22s is the MOB incident boat, and presumably that is the incident....

 

[mrming]

I think so, yes. Also in their longer video at 5:10 -

 

[ckris]

Late to this thread - we finished just behind the OP (could not save our time on them as they scooted away from us down the back of the island). It was a salty experience and pleased we got around without any major dramas.

This was our 20th RTIR on the same boat, definitely the windiest but not extreme in contrast to, for example, last years Fastnet race. It actually felt easier than 2023 RTIR because the high attrition rate meant there was a lot less traffic to contend with - the number of boats around is normally the biggest risk to deal with in the RTIR (also what makes it such a special race).

There were a few firsts for us this year:

First time we have not passed inside the Varvassi wreck - not even tempted! There were a few extraordinarily well sailed boats that I think did go through so not going to second guess their judgement.

First time we have not put up colourful sails - was tempted, think we could have carried our small A5 OK, but narrowly decided not to. Base wind was high 20s, but very regular gusts to 33/34 knots pretty much from Yarmouth to the finish - highest we saw was 35 knots just after Hurst. Once past St Cats a goose-winged headsail and pointing the bow down the waves was quite quick for a Sigma 38 : )

Slightly niche, but no Sigma 38 has done the RTIR in under 7 hours elapsed time (a few have got close), so chuffed we broke that barrier whilst sailing conservatively.

Not easy to do much photography but a short video from the back of the Island:

 

[Juan Twothree]

When giving a safety briefing before going out I will always tell crew that a MOB is an immediate mayday unless conditions are very seriously benign. Even then, if in doubt get straight on ch16 with a mayday. It can always be cancelled.

Absolutely correct.

Slightly unusual scenario in the RTIR in that there are already lifeboats and other rescue craft at sea, but a Mayday would still grab people's attention amongst the other radio traffic.

Even though the LB was nearby, given the conditons, and the possibility that the MOB might have been injured, I'd have been tempted to get a helicopter tasked as well.

As you say, they can always be cancelled.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Absolutely correct.

Slightly unusual scenario in the RTIR in that there are already lifeboats and other rescue craft at sea, but a Mayday would still grab people's attention amongst the other radio traffic.

Even though the LB was nearby, given the conditons, and the possibility that the MOB might have been injured, I'd have been tempted to get a helicopter tasked as well.

As you say, they can always be cancelled.

And recovering your own MOB doesn’t mean it’s not a mayday, as you say they might be injured, it’s not unusual.

 

[flaming]

Late to this thread - we finished just behind the OP (could not save our time on them as they scooted away from us down the back of the island). It was a salty experience and pleased we got around without any major dramas.

This was our 20th RTIR on the same boat, definitely the windiest but not extreme in contrast to, for example, last years Fastnet race. It actually felt easier than 2023 RTIR because the high attrition rate meant there was a lot less traffic to contend with - the number of boats around is normally the biggest risk to deal with in the RTIR (also what makes it such a special race).

There were a few firsts for us this year:

First time we have not passed inside the Varvassi wreck - not even tempted! There were a few extraordinarily well sailed boats that I think did go through so not going to second guess their judgement.

First time we have not put up colourful sails - was tempted, think we could have carried our small A5 OK, but narrowly decided not to. Base wind was high 20s, but very regular gusts to 33/34 knots pretty much from Yarmouth to the finish - highest we saw was 35 knots just after Hurst. Once past St Cats a goose-winged headsail and pointing the bow down the waves was quite quick for a Sigma 38 : )

Slightly niche, but no Sigma 38 has done the RTIR in under 7 hours elapsed time (a few have got close), so chuffed we broke that barrier whilst sailing conservatively.

Not easy to do much photography but a short video from the back of the Island:

I was surprised to see a Sigma so close, especially as I hadn't recalled seeing one after Hurst. Given the way we passed the 109s on the reach to st Cats you guys must have seriously outperformed your rating on that leg. On the leg to Bembridge we decided that even without a kite we were probably faster playing the angles than goosewinging, but that was intuition rather than any sort of data.... So we were sailing to just keep the jib full and mostly stayed on the plane. Dunno if we would have been better to point downhill or not....

The 7 hour barrier is a real thing for a lot of boats, we never quite got there in the Elan either, did it between 7:01 and 7:10 on I think 4 separate occasions. You have just prompted me to look up the best time the current boat ever did under its previous ownership though, and annoyingly we were 4 minutes slower..... Though I think on a year without much of a beat. Should have popped that kite....

 

[doris]

‘Popped that kite’ Hmm, divorces are expensive!

 

[flaming]

‘Popped that kite’ Hmm, divorces are expensive!

At St Cats we were only about 6 minutes behind Notorious on corrected. (Incidentally, that new live leaderboard was an excellent feature) We then discussed hoisting a kite. My wife said no, that will result in a divorce.

One of the crew then asked "Is a shot at the gold Roman bowl worth a divorce?" In a tone that suggested he thought it was....