Planning to liveaboad in the med

[Daveandrobert]

Hi everyone I am new to the forum and would appreciate some advice please.
I am 58 years old with very little sailing experience, together with my son who is 36 we will be taking our competent sailing course in June of this year, together with our v.h.f radio course and hope to take our day skippers course by the end of this year. We are planning to by a boat around April / may next year and spend next season sailing and learning as much as we can, if all goes well we could maybe take our coastal skippers course as well. We would like to spend 2019 in the med leaving the u.k April / may. The budget for the boat will be about 50k. We will have a healthy budget to go with about 12k but I am aware that any amount of money will run out sooner or later if there is nothing coming in.
What I would like to know is, does anyone think that if we obtain the right licenses would we be able to make a modest amount of money taking people out snorkelling, dolphin watching, or just a days sailing.
We would do this discreetly so as not to upset anyone and if it paid our marina fees that would be great
If you think we are nuts please tell me, you are probably the best people to ask thanks.

 

[sailaboutvic]

There are people that do just that ,
but be warn if you not plainning to do this all above board , you could end up losing your boat , fined or even worst .

 

[Daveandrobert]

Thankyou for your advice. Do you know exactly what the requirements are ?

 

[macd]

Do you know exactly what the requirements are ?

To be above board, if you use the boat commercially in this way it would probably need to be coded (essentially certified as meeting safety criteria, which is no small or cheap matter). And insured for such activity. And you qualified for such activity.

However, there's no such thing as "the requirements": they vary from country to country and The Mediterranean has a lot of countries. You'd need to narrow it down.

That's not to say that a few people don't do it unofficially but, as Vic suggests, the penalties can be large (and the pickings slim). To make it work commercially you'd be best confining yourself to and becoming known in a specific area, yet becoming known when you're working on the fly may not be to your advantage.

 

[ripvan1]

Is that 12k a year budget each or total? As for 50k for a boat when you've not lived aboard before, I would suggest you charter first to find out what sort of things that suit you - that amount of dosh for an unsuitable boat is a bitter pill to swallow if it doesn't work out - good luck and keep us updated.

 

[GrahamM376]

A few things come to mind. As said above, as of now - the boat will have to be coded and commercially insured, you will have to be at least coastal skipper commercially endorsed which needs quite a few miles under the belt. Even with these conditions, some authorities have stopped non nationals from chartering. 2019 will be after Brexit so, chances are both you and your boat will be treated visitors to EU and no doubt banned from commercial activity as well as being time limited there.

 

[Daveandrobert]

It will be 12k between us which won't last that long if we don't find a way of earning some cash.
If that's the case then we may have to come back home live on the boat for the winter and top up our funds ready to go again for the next season. We will go out on as many different boats as we can before we spend our money hopefully we will decide on the right one but will not be rushing in to anything. The cash for the boat will come from modest savings but mostly from a remortgage. As for brexit I don't think anybody knows what will happen we will just have to keep our eye on it and see what is decided

 

[macd]

Afraid it's not very realistic to winter on board in the UK and then commute to the Med and back every year. It can certainly be done, but it's a slog and a waste. It would also mean long passages at the dog-ends of the season, when conditions may not be good. Many liveaboards take a year just to get the the Med!

Secondly, the Med is not just the EU. Most of the European coast is, to be sure, but parts of the former Yugoslavia, Albania, Cyprus and above all Turkey are not. Turkey is fairly generous with residence, although that might also change to a degree with Brexit. Then there's Gib, which is in many ways more English than Cheltenham.

You may also find that the best boat for the Med is one that's already there.

 

[Daveandrobert]

Thanks Mac . My flat would be rented out back home so that was why I wanted to bring the boat back so that could continue. I knew that there would be lots of hoops to jump through and lots of planning to be done but this is something that we have both wanted to do for a long time we are tirered of the 9 to 5 it's time to start living not working to pay bills.
What do other liveaboards do for the winter ?

 

[RupertW]

Have either of you any skills that can be done remotely? You will be in cellular or mobile contact pretty much all the time. Although we are not liveaboards we are able to spend a lot more time away from work each year as we can do work from the boat just as easily as from a remote office. Email, web access, Skype etc. etc. are all available.

I also agree that the sheer time and gear breakage you would get commuting from Med and back would not be a good thing. We often do swap bases at the beginning or end of a year but even the 750 miles between last years summer marina and this years was hard on gear and time. Going all the way from the cheaper Eastern med to UK and back would be very much more so.

Some people find a nice winter marina and stay on board. Many others come home so rent our their places for Summer only. That will be our plan when we can eventually afford it. So for you perhaps 6k income for the Summer, then 6 months real earning in the Winter back in your flat in the UK?

I suspect you will enjoy the boat and sailing so much more if you alternate - we do 9 months and 3 months most years and I find I enjoy both work and the boat more than concentrating on one or the other.

 

[Tony Cross]

I would strongly advise against assuming that you'll make money 'taking people out snorkelling, dolphin watching, or just a days sailing' and I say this for several reasons...

1. You WILL fall foul of the local tripper boats, day charter boats, and the like who are doing this legally already. Nothing that happens around the coasts in the Med is invisible and you will be seen coming and going with different people on your boat. I have seen a couple of boats in my marina (Crete) fined by the port police for chartering illegally.

2. Where will you find your clients? If you advertise anywhere the local tripper boats, day charter boats, and the port police, will shut you down that much faster. Most hotels already have agreements with local tripper boats and day charter boats to send their hotel clients to specific boats so approaching hotels asking for business will also get you shut down quickly.

3. What will you do if one of your clients is seriously injured or dies whilst out with you? If you're chartering illegally your insurance will be invalid and most Med countries who depend on tourism will not go easy on you if something goes wrong and a tourist is hurt.

4. Trying to do this legally is going to be expensive and time consuming. Most Med countries have very strict requirements for both the boat and the skipper (and crew) if they are being used to take tourists out. And rightly so, I'm sure you'll agree.

 

[Daveandrobert]

Thanks for your advice tony. We would certainly not want to put anyone's life in danger or our own for that matter. I think that the legal route is the only way to go by the sound of things however expensive or time consuming it may prove to be. we are prepared to do whatever it takes to make this plan work nothing worth having is easy to get I suppose. If we were totally legal we could tout for business along with everyone else and with a lot of time and hard work we might be able to make a modest amount of money. I will research coding and insurance requirements for Spain to start with and also what professional tickets we will need. We are not looking to start business and make a lot money just enough to be able to sail and have a modest lifestyle. Once again thanks for your advice.

 

[Carmel2]

Becoming legal to do this kind of work might tie you down to one location, which might defeat your goal.

 

[Daveandrobert]

Wouldn't mind being tied to one place for the summer if it paid for us to go cruising somewhere warmer each winter I wouldn't want to spend the winter months in the med

 

[Tranona]

Wouldn't mind being tied to one place for the summer if it paid for us to go cruising somewhere warmer each winter I wouldn't want to spend the winter months in the med

Forget about trying to earn any money, even legally, based on your boat. The charter and day trip market is very well developed in any of the places where there is potential business. There is no room for the casual provider. Although Brexit has not happened yet it is already difficult for non nationals to do it legally in most countries.

You need to step back and look at the issues you need to deal with. Liveaboards fall into two broad camps. The first and probably largest are retirees who live off their pensions, investments etc. At the other end is a small number of vagabond types who make their way around living at anchor and earning from jobs such as bar work, fixing other travellers' boats, grape picking etc. In other words subsistence level. In between is a very varied group who work in a way that allows them to live aboard either permanently (with a job that can be done from the boat) or have contract work that allows them long periods on board. Many live on the boat in the summer and come home to work in the winter. Remember that for most of the med little sailing takes place for 4 months of the year, but many do live in marinas for the winter.

As to boat and budgets. You should get a suitable boat in the budget, but be aware that a UK boat will need significant expenditure to equip it properly for the med, particularly if you want to sail it there. The suggestion of doing a 2 week charter is a good one as you will find out first whether you like it and what is involved in living on a boat in hot climates and second the sort of boat and kit is suitable.

If you buy a boat in the UK and sail it out you will use the first year getting there, and all of your £12k budget. That is the most challenging part, as well as, for many, the most interesting. Some actually take 2 or 3 seasons over it, and others never actually get there!. You also end up in the most expensive part of the Med and it can take another season to get to the east, particularly Greece, which is far and away the most agreeable and cheapest place to liveaboard.

You can avoid much of this by moving the boat by road to Spain, or buying a boat that will transit the French canals. However, the most sensible and economical thing to do is buy a boat already there. You will get a boat already equipped and move onto it immediately. Chances are it will be VAT paid in a state other than UK so will make life easier post Brexit.

It is still possible for 2 to live on less than £1000 a month in Greece as mooring and layup costs are still low compared with anywhere else. So a regime of 6/7 months on the boat and the rest in the UK to earn money for the next year is quite feasible. The idea of going somewhere warm with the boat for the winter is not realistic. Distances are vast and to get reliable winter sailing you need to get out of the Med to the Canary Islands at least.

There are plenty of books, magazine articles, blogs etc around covering a wide variety of liveaboard experiences. These will help you see what is possible.

 

[Daveandrobert]

Thankyou tranona I will bear all that you have said in mind

 

[ripvan1]

All good advice being given - but I think spending 50k on a boat with a dream to make money by doing something that hasn't been well researched could lead you into trouble. Doing it under the radar is a no no - for reasons given above, each med country will have its own rules and regs so you say you'll do Spain - many have tried and many have failed. With your budget and incomings I would consider buying a cheaper boat (say 25/30k) in the med and get to know the life - it's not for everyone but at least your money burdens will be lessened. Trying it for 3 or so years and researching work opportunities as you go will give you a better chance than diving straight in and blowing all your cash at once - why don't you want to spend winters in the med? Looking after and checking out other peoples boats can be a "pin money" job which you could grow into something legally, but you need to make contacts and be available.

 

[sailaboutvic]

Has I said in #2 and agree 100% with what everyone has said , some very good advise , BUT , yes here a but , people do it and make a small living on it , as I write this there two boats at anchor which I know very well who do week charters getting their clients from there home country , one Dutch and one from Germany both who I was speaking to only the other night , both have a full program from June on wards but there are also doing it above board . So let not dismiss the idea .

 

[Tony Cross]

Has I said in #2 and agree 100% with what everyone has said , some very good advise , BUT , yes here a but , people do it and make a small living on it , as I write this there two boats at anchor which I know very well who do week charters getting their clients from there home country , one Dutch and one from Germany both who I was speaking to only the other night , both have a full program from June on wards but there are also doing it above board . So let not dismiss the idea .

I also know someone doing this (though he's in the Caribbean now). However, the idea that you can live on a boat in the Med and live (at least partly) off the income from having tourists aboard for sailing/fishing/whatever is one that almost everyone has at some point. The fact is though that only a very tiny percentage make it work, mostly for the reasons I listed earlier.

It's important that the OP realise that what he plans is not going to be easy, and in most places it's not even going to be possible. Tourists are not clamoring to get aboard a private sailing yacht (especially if it looks like a typical liveaboard boat). I've only met a tiny handful of tourists in my 12 years who were looking for a casual day charter. The dream of chartering your own boat in the Med is similar to the dream of winning the National Lottery. The dream comes true for some.......

 

[Kelpie]

What about a smaller, older, cheaper boat?
In the past, a 32ft boat was considered large... human beings are roughly the same size as they used to be... if you don't set your expectations too high you could spend say £20k on a perfectly good boat and have plenty left in the kitty for the inevitable replacement of equipment.