Pioneer 9

[jwilson]

As others have said they are not Pioneers but Pioniers from the Dutch. Agree with everything said, a lot of very seaworthy boat for the money these days, and not that slow for a 1959 design. Hatch access best for the reasonably agile, a la Contessa 26. There is also a Pionier 10, a bit bigger.

 

[creeks]

Some evidence of the Pioniers' capabilities may be in these results of the 1971 Fastnet Race where a Pionier 10 won the Foxhound Cup and a Pionier 9 (Salidi) won the Battler Beadle Quaich. It was at times a heavy weather race but Salidi certainly coped admirably, far better than the crew of which I was one.

 

[jwdorst]

Hi pmnfernando,

You must have purchased the Katie-J?

I recently sent a message to the (now previous) owner (Skipper Bob on Cruisersforum.com), asking about his keel bolt replacement experience, which he was apparently considering doing. He had found some good information on the construction of the keel and bolts. But I guess he decided to leave that particular job to the new owner . His post was from 2016....

I'm considering purchasing a Pionier which requires 'some work'... One of the possible deal breakers could be the time/expense involved with keel bolt replacement. So, I would really be interested to hear how it went for you!

Thanks!
JW

 

[pmnfernando]

Hi!

I replaced the bolts myself and splashed Katie-J last April.
The keel was separated from the hull via a sawzall, that ive used to simply cut the bolts flushed, as i wasnt going to waste time trying to get them undone from the inside
I then had a friend weld in a piece of tube and we unscrewed the bolts from the keel. all went really smooth.
The keel plan that i had was wrong. the plan stated the keel bolts ran the entire height of keel, exiting at the bottom where you would find a nut. this wasnt the case, the bolts were simply screwed onto the keel, say 3-4 inches deep.
the bolts section screwed onto the keel were perfect! i was really surprised by that. but since the top section was corroded they had to come out aniway.
i measured the TPI, ordered them, and installed them back.

on the inside of the boat i took the oppurtunity to make the bottom of the bilge a flat surface before the keel install.
i did this by applying a layer of biaxial cloth, then doing a epoxy pour which would self level itself. on top of this ive epoxied in a 6mm thick G10 board which runs the entire lenght of the keel.
i drilled the bolt holes from below using a drill guide, oversized the holes by a couple of mm to give it a bit of play when the time came to lower the hull onto the keel.
then i used 5 tubes of 4200 and made sure everything square mm on the top of the keel was covered by it, lowered the hull, tightened the bolts from the inside, remove some of the squeeze out (not completely as some of it actually acts as fairing since the keel and hull have some discrepancies between them) letf it to cure for a couple of days.
the final step was to apply a generous layer (width wise) of biaxial cloth over the keel joint, 2 feet wide, and in one continuous lenght all around the keel.

i would go for it and change the bolts, its not dificult. it was my first time doing it and to be honest the most stressfull bit was putting the hull back on it because the holes were tight as. it took a couple of tries and fine tunning but all done in less than 90 minutes.

would like to see your boat!!

 

[jwdorst]

Hi pmnfernando,

Thanks so much for your reply! A lot of good information. Certainly doesn't sound as painful as I thought it might be.

I think the below image sums up the current state of the boat I'm looking at! I'm still debating whether to go for it. I actually have another (multi year) boat refit project underway. That boat is on the hard and will probaly remain so for a couple of years. But I really miss sailing, so am thinking of patching this one up so that I can at least get out onto the water every now and then.



Thanks again, and fair winds!

Regards,
JW

Hi!

I replaced the bolts myself and splashed Katie-J last April.
The keel was separated from the hull via a sawzall, that ive used to simply cut the bolts flushed, as i wasnt going to waste time trying to get them undone from the inside
I then had a friend weld in a piece of tube and we unscrewed the bolts from the keel. all went really smooth.
The keel plan that i had was wrong. the plan stated the keel bolts ran the entire height of keel, exiting at the bottom where you would find a nut. this wasnt the case, the bolts were simply screwed onto the keel, say 3-4 inches deep.
the bolts section screwed onto the keel were perfect! i was really surprised by that. but since the top section was corroded they had to come out aniway.
i measured the TPI, ordered them, and installed them back.

on the inside of the boat i took the oppurtunity to make the bottom of the bilge a flat surface before the keel install.
i did this by applying a layer of biaxial cloth, then doing a epoxy pour which would self level itself. on top of this ive epoxied in a 6mm thick G10 board which runs the entire lenght of the keel.
i drilled the bolt holes from below using a drill guide, oversized the holes by a couple of mm to give it a bit of play when the time came to lower the hull onto the keel.
then i used 5 tubes of 4200 and made sure everything square mm on the top of the keel was covered by it, lowered the hull, tightened the bolts from the inside, remove some of the squeeze out (not completely as some of it actually acts as fairing since the keel and hull have some discrepancies between them) letf it to cure for a couple of days.
the final step was to apply a generous layer (width wise) of biaxial cloth over the keel joint, 2 feet wide, and in one continuous lenght all around the keel.

i would go for it and change the bolts, its not dificult. it was my first time doing it and to be honest the most stressfull bit was putting the hull back on it because the holes were tight as. it took a couple of tries and fine tunning but all done in less than 90 minutes.

would like to see your boat!!

 

[Stemar]

I think the below image sums up the current state of the boat I'm looking at! I'm still debating whether to go for it. I actually have another (multi year) boat refit project underway. That boat is on the hard and will probaly remain so for a couple of years. But I really miss sailing, so am thinking of patching this one up so that I can at least get out onto the water every now and then.

I understand your predicament. However, buy that one, and your current project will almost certainly spend at least one extra year on the hard.
"It's only a couple of weekend's work to get this one ready to sail."
6 weekends later...
Great sailing last week, but I really ought to tidy up the Pioneer so I can invite other people...
6 weekends later...
etc.

Unless you're in the business, I reckon one project's more than enough at a time.

 

[Lumi]

Hi pmnfernando,

I've been sailing a Pionier 9 from 1962 since 2021 and am considering replacing the keel bolts this winter. Would love to hear more about your project as I'm a bit new to refits, although I'm not afraid of getting my hands dirty.

I've got a lot of construction diagrams and sail plans from my boat if you're interested - not sure what your documentation looks like but I inherited a whole folder.

Just out of interest: Do you sail with a furling headsail or do you swap them? I've got a jenny on a Harken furler and I'm considering switching to hanks.

Hi!

I replaced the bolts myself and splashed Katie-J last April.
The keel was separated from the hull via a sawzall, that ive used to simply cut the bolts flushed, as i wasnt going to waste time trying to get them undone from the inside
I then had a friend weld in a piece of tube and we unscrewed the bolts from the keel. all went really smooth.
The keel plan that i had was wrong. the plan stated the keel bolts ran the entire height of keel, exiting at the bottom where you would find a nut. this wasnt the case, the bolts were simply screwed onto the keel, say 3-4 inches deep.
the bolts section screwed onto the keel were perfect! i was really surprised by that. but since the top section was corroded they had to come out aniway.
i measured the TPI, ordered them, and installed them back.

on the inside of the boat i took the oppurtunity to make the bottom of the bilge a flat surface before the keel install.
i did this by applying a layer of biaxial cloth, then doing a epoxy pour which would self level itself. on top of this ive epoxied in a 6mm thick G10 board which runs the entire lenght of the keel.
i drilled the bolt holes from below using a drill guide, oversized the holes by a couple of mm to give it a bit of play when the time came to lower the hull onto the keel.
then i used 5 tubes of 4200 and made sure everything square mm on the top of the keel was covered by it, lowered the hull, tightened the bolts from the inside, remove some of the squeeze out (not completely as some of it actually acts as fairing since the keel and hull have some discrepancies between them) letf it to cure for a couple of days.
the final step was to apply a generous layer (width wise) of biaxial cloth over the keel joint, 2 feet wide, and in one continuous lenght all around the keel.

i would go for it and change the bolts, its not dificult. it was my first time doing it and to be honest the most stressfull bit was putting the hull back on it because the holes were tight as. it took a couple of tries and fine tunning but all done in less than 90 minutes.

would like to see your boat!!

 

[pmnfernando]

Hi pmnfernando,

Thanks so much for your reply! A lot of good information. Certainly doesn't sound as painful as I thought it might be.

I think the below image sums up the current state of the boat I'm looking at! I'm still debating whether to go for it. I actually have another (multi year) boat refit project underway. That boat is on the hard and will probaly remain so for a couple of years. But I really miss sailing, so am thinking of patching this one up so that I can at least get out onto the water every now and then.

View attachment 136799

Thanks again, and fair winds!

Regards,
JW

it does look a lot like mine when i first got her (sligthly different layout),, without the mirrored cabin top liner which looks amazing!!
glad i was able to help. i think its a good strategy to keep this one going while you finish the big project. you can always return to the Pioneer later on and give her some tlc where its most needed. all the best for yous projects!

 

[pmnfernando]

Hi pmnfernando,

I've been sailing a Pionier 9 from 1962 since 2021 and am considering replacing the keel bolts this winter. Would love to hear more about your project as I'm a bit new to refits, although I'm not afraid of getting my hands dirty.

I've got a lot of construction diagrams and sail plans from my boat if you're interested - not sure what your documentation looks like but I inherited a whole folder.

Just out of interest: Do you sail with a furling headsail or do you swap them? I've got a jenny on a Harken furler and I'm considering switching to hanks.

Hi, it seems our boats share the same year of production.
I would be really interesting is seeing more documentation about the boats! always learning new stuff that way.
Ive tried to send you a PM, but im a bit lost on this website on how to do it. Maybe if you send me one i can reply and will give you a link where you can see all the work i have been doing on Katie J, lots of photos.
The bolts shoulndt be much of a hassle specially if you intend to swap them. you can try to undo them from the inside via a jam nut or cut them flush at the keel-hull join and then unscrewing them.

about the sails my head sail is on a furler and im thinking about installing a smaller staysail and making her a slutter by sharing the same attachment point on the mast head (avoiding the install of more backstays) and anchoring the smaller stay just fwd of the man hole. i would be also using a furler for this. the idea is to make this a portable system where i can clip/unclip the staysail instead of having it permanently installed (because you would lose the only place available to land a very small dinghy on deck)

 

[Captain Blade]

I have just bought a Pioneer 9 and would welcome any advice from the forum regarding these boats. It's a project and there is quite a lot of work to do in order to get her ship shape and seaworthy. She needs a total interior refit, and she needs new standing rigging and running rigging. The hull also needs painting etc.

I am also looking for Sails and a Tiller. Would anybody know the measurements for the sails or where I can find these measurements? If anybody has used sails, then I would be willing to buy them for the right price.

I also need a tiller and I wondered if somebody could advise me on this. I think it will need the steel end of the tiller too. Please see first attachment.

Secondly could anybody advise me if the bunks can be removed in the fore cabin. See second attachment.

Regarding knocking down bulkheads to the fore cabin, will this affect the structure? What is the best way to go about this? I have an idea but could do with some advice.

I'm also considering changing the main hatch at the cockpit to make it an opening hatch. Will this impact the structure?

Please see other attachments. Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Captain Blade]

Hi pmnfernando,

I've been sailing a Pionier 9 from 1962 since 2021 and am considering replacing the keel bolts this winter. Would love to hear more about your project as I'm a bit new to refits, although I'm not afraid of getting my hands dirty.

I've got a lot of construction diagrams and sail plans from my boat if you're interested - not sure what your documentation looks like but I inherited a whole folder.

Just out of interest: Do you sail with a furling headsail or do you swap them? I've got a jenny on a Harken furler and I'm considering switching to hanks.

Hi Lumi

Please see my post dated 18th November. I would be interested in seeing your construction diagrams and sail plans if possible. Any help or advice you can provide would be appreciated.

 

[pmnfernando]

Hi Captain Blade

you can remove the V berth bunks, they are glassed to the hull but it wont have any effect on the structure.
once you remove the bunks you will notice the moulded floor piece, also glassed to the hull. i removed that as well because you gain a lot of space.

about the hatch: i cant see that it would affect the integrity of the cabin top, these boats are built in solid glass and they are well built. i kept mine because it is a very distinguishing note on these boats and because you gain "counter space" on the cabin top for winches, jammers, compasses, etc.

you need the tiller head piece that slots into that chunky bit of metal topped with that bullnose nut.
you can have that made to fit, or cut it from a rectangular section (with rounded corners) into a C channel to which the tiller bolts.

im posting my refit on another forum and have tons of photos of the work done so far. send me a PM and will direct you there
there is also a Facebook group for Van de Stadt boats:
Van de Stadt Klassieke Zeiljachten | Facebook
i post some photos there also.

 

[Captain Blade]

Hi Captain Blade

you can remove the V berth bunks, they are glassed to the hull but it wont have any effect on the structure.
once you remove the bunks you will notice the moulded floor piece, also glassed to the hull. i removed that as well because you gain a lot of space.

about the hatch: i cant see that it would affect the integrity of the cabin top, these boats are built in solid glass and they are well built. i kept mine because it is a very distinguishing note on these boats and because you gain "counter space" on the cabin top for winches, jammers, compasses, etc.

you need the tiller head piece that slots into that chunky bit of metal topped with that bullnose nut.
you can have that made to fit, or cut it from a rectangular section (with rounded corners) into a C channel to which the tiller bolts.

im posting my refit on another forum and have tons of photos of the work done so far. send me a PM and will direct you there
there is also a Facebook group for Van de Stadt boats:
Van de Stadt Klassieke Zeiljachten | Facebook
i post some photos there also.

Hi pmnfernando

That's a great help. It's good to know I can remove the bunks.

Regarding the Companionway Hatch, I'm considering Tambour Doors.

Regarding the Tiller Head Piece, I've just found one I think: Lewmar Tiller Heads

I don't think I am able to post a PM because I am new to the forum, not only that, but I'm also new to sailing. Having said that I did serve in the Royal Navy. Totally different! I can tie a few knots, but that's all!

Would you have an idea what the measurements are for a Mainsail, Genoa and Storm Jib as I'm looking to order some?

Once again, Thanks so much you've helped me loads already and I haven't even started. Massive weight of my mind knowing I can remove the bunks. Going down to see it perhaps next week. She's based in Plymouth.

 

[pmnfernando]

usually the weak point on these boats is the compression exerted by the mast directly on top of the main bulkhead. what happen is: because there isnt much meat on the bulkhead (due to the v berth opening) overtime, the deck caves in. you will, most likely, need to reinforce that.
if you go to the FB group you will come across the other forum where i post

for the sails: i had my mainsail done by Precision Sails. they send a comprehensive measurement form, which is the best way of getting your dimensions. im sure other sail lofts offer measurements forms online.

you are welcome, always good to see another Pioner 9 being refitted, keep posting photos!

 

[AntarcticPilot]

The bulkheads are almost certainly vital structural elements that must be replaced like for like if removed.

 

[Slowboat35]

Pioneer 9?
Lawdy!
I thought you were outbound for the Oort cloud!

 

[AntarcticPilot]

Pioneer 9?
Lawdy!
I thought you were outbound for the Oort cloud!

The bulkheads on that one are definitely structural! But I understand that the plutonium batteries need replacing.

 

[pmnfernando]

The bulkheads are almost certainly vital structural elements that must be replaced like for like if removed.

yes, of course. i wasnt talking about that.
just pointing out that reinforcing the bulkhead is something that needs to be done even if it is great shape like mine at 60 years old.

 

[Lumi]

Strange, I'm just getting notification about your reply now. I'll scan in the docs I have and send them to you by mail, as it seems I can't respond, either. You can hit me up on Gmail, the address is pionier.lumi (I'm sure you can figure out the rest).

Very interesting to see what you've done so far. My Pionier is in pretty decent shape, but I want to do the bottom and windows this winter at a minimum, and I'd really like to tackle the keel bolts as well.

Hi, it seems our boats share the same year of production.
I would be really interesting is seeing more documentation about the boats! always learning new stuff that way.
Ive tried to send you a PM, but im a bit lost on this website on how to do it. Maybe if you send me one i can reply and will give you a link where you can see all the work i have been doing on Katie J, lots of photos.
The bolts shoulndt be much of a hassle specially if you intend to swap them. you can try to undo them from the inside via a jam nut or cut them flush at the keel-hull join and then unscrewing them.

about the sails my head sail is on a furler and im thinking about installing a smaller staysail and making her a slutter by sharing the same attachment point on the mast head (avoiding the install of more backstays) and anchoring the smaller stay just fwd of the man hole. i would be also using a furler for this. the idea is to make this a portable system where i can clip/unclip the staysail instead of having it permanently installed (because you would lose the only place available to land a very small dinghy on deck)

 

[Lumi]

Hi Lumi

Please see my post dated 18th November. I would be interested in seeing your construction diagrams and sail plans if possible. Any help or advice you can provide would be appreciated.

Hi Captain, I can't reply privately, but if you email me at pionier.lumi (at Gmail), I'll send you the docs I have. I was thinking about removing the v berth too, or at least lowering it by 12 inches or so. It's a headache if you know what I mean.