Orca attack

[Fr J Hackett]

Well, remember that it's the Spanish report that says that the fitting of these blades is illegal, not me. Feel free to argue with the Spanish ministry.

I doubt that there is a Spanish law that could be used to stop them being fitted as I have said and indeed the report says the illegality of these would be when the inflict injury on the Orca.

 

[Bristolfashion]

Under investigation is not prosecuted and yes I would call in at a Northern Spanish port and buy at least 20 of the biggest bangers available or try to buy them in my departing country as my normal or preferred route to the Azores or Canaries would be well offshore.

True, but the Gibraltar Chronicle says,

"A criminal case has been launched on behalf of Seprona, the Spanish Environmental Agency, against the boat’s skipper and the person who allegedly used the explosives to scare the orcas away."

 

[Bristolfashion]

I doubt that there is a Spanish law that could be used to stop them being fitted as I have said and indeed the report says the illegality of these would be when the inflict injury on the Orca.

I wonder why the Ministry report said it was illegal?

 

[Fr J Hackett]

True, but the Gibraltar Chronicle says,

"A criminal case has been launched on behalf of Seprona, the Spanish Environmental Agency, against the boat’s skipper and the person who allegedly used the explosives to scare the orcas away."

So we will wait and see my money is on nothing happening.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

I wonder why the Ministry report said it was illegal?

Because they want to reinforce the idea so that people will be deterred from doing it. If they could show how it was illegal they would as they do for the other active detergents proposed ie they can be said to cause harm in their deployment, the spikes cannot, they only cause harm if and when the Orca bites on them.

 

[Bristolfashion]

Because they want to reinforce the idea so that people will be deterred from doing it. If they could show how it was illegal they would as they do for the other active detergents proposed ie they can be said to cause harm in their deployment, the spikes cannot, they only cause harm if and when the Orca bites on them.

Look, my opinion was the same as yours - it's the interaction with the orcas that counts. However, it would be unwise to be so certain of foreign interpretation of their own laws - which we are contemplating in translation anyway.

If I fix a harpoon gun on the front of my boat and sail into orca waters calling myself Captain Ahab .....!

 

[Bristolfashion]

Because they want to reinforce the idea so that people will be deterred from doing it. If they could show how it was illegal they would as they do for the other active detergents proposed ie they can be said to cause harm in their deployment, the spikes cannot, they only cause harm if and when the Orca bites on them.

Maybe fitting a blade designed to harm orcas would be considered an action under the relevant Spanish law - I don't know. It would be hard to argue an alternative use!

 

[Fr J Hackett]

Maybe fitting a blade designed to harm orcas would be considered an action under the relevant Spanish law - I don't know. It would be hard to argue an alternative use!

As it is argued that the Orcas are intelligent it could be argued that they would be aware of danger and thus it could be argued that the spikes are a visual deterrent.

 

[Bristolfashion]

As it is argued that the Orcas are intelligent it could be argued that they would be aware of danger and thus it could be argued that the spikes are a visual deterrent.

Hmmmmmm!

And how would a judge say, "I wasn't born yesterday" in Spanish?

No nací ayer!

Anyway, I've no idea - I look forward to a copy of your correspondence with the Spanish authorities seeking approval for your various armaments!

 

[webcraft]

And has been prosecuted in Spain. From Greeny's report,

"To date, mariners are known or believed to have used a number of methods (with at least one
crew, which fired flares at killer whales, under investigation by Spanish authorities; Item 2.3.1), "


Fancy a Spanish prison do you? Or at least the possibility of a fine.

Firing flares is not the same as deploying a firecracker.

'Under investigation' is not an arrest.

And a fine is almost certainly going to be more affordable than a tow and a rudder rebuild.

- W

 

[Bristolfashion]

Firing flares is not deploying a firecracker.

And - if you are quoting, including the source might make it slightly mlre convincing.

A fine is almost certainly going to be more affordable than a tow and a rudder rebuild.

- W

Er, I said it's in Greeny's report - you know, the one he posted a link to in #2448 - and he's on your side!

I see that the fines under 42/2007 generally range from €100 to €2000000, with the autonomous communities being able to increase them further. I have no idea where an anti-orca offense would sit.

 

[billskip]

Er, I said it's in Greeny's report - you know, the one he posted a link to in #2448 - and he's on your side!

I see that the fines under 42/2007 generally range from €100 to €2000000, with the autonomous communities being able to increase them further. I have no idea where an anti-orca offense would sit.

Yes but if you pay within 20 days you only have to pay half

 

[capnsensible]

Can you get a residents discount?

The Spanish maritime authorities are expending enormous effort challenging but never halting thev24 hour drug smuggling in huge quantities across the Straits. A yachtie is gonna have to be really dumb....like posting what they did on a social media platform.....to attract the slightest interest. Where of course, the self defence flag will be waved.

 

[Zing]

I think this is the right way to discipline the blighters. They are quick learners I’m sure.

 

[greeny]

I put the report up so that everyone can understand the current situation and to stop the continuous bullshit flying around this forum about what is legal and what is not. At least now, anyone prepared to read can see the latest discussions on the orca situation.
By the way the crew who used firecrackers have not been prosecuted, they are under investigation. Somewhat different.
Pointed protuberances are acceptable according to the summary but can currently only be 20mm long in order to not damage the Orcas and just act as a deterrent but the size maximum is under review. They call them protuberances as opposed to spikes.
Noise producing devices are also under test and development. This includes firecrackers of lesser power.
Fishermen have been using diesel and firecrackers for years and have not yet been prosecuted to the best of my knowledge.
Its very easy to read a report like this and only "see" the bits that suit your argument. Try reading it all and absorbing it all.
Most people down here with skin in the game already know what is and is not currently thought of as "legal" but until a working legal deterrent is approved they will continue to do what they consider to be sensible in the circumstances when they arise and try to protect their boat and crew.
In law that may be considered as "self defence" and "acting with reasonable force",

 

[greeny]

I wonder why the Ministry report said it was illegal?

Their interpretation of the actions in law. That table is of their making. What they think the law means. There has not actually been a case in court yet. The fitting of spikes case is being considered as is the case against the "firing off flares" crew. No court prosecutions yet.

 

[Bristolfashion]

Its very easy to read a report like this and only "see" the bits that suit your argument. Try reading it all and absorbing it all.

It's also pretty easy to read the whole thing and summarise it. You seem to be looking for or support for an aggressive, anti-orca stance that simply isn't there in that report.

The only two deterrent actions shown as "legal" in the table from the report that I reproduced are the fitting of small protuberances to the rudder & sand. Otherwise it's move away & research.

Perhaps you would care to highlight and/or summarise elements that support your views.

 

[Bristolfashion]

Fishermen have been using diesel and firecrackers for years and have not yet been prosecuted to the best of my knowledge.

Many people break all sorts of laws and get away with it - doesn't make it good or right.

 

[billskip]

- doesn't make it good or right

That also applies to some laws....

 

[Bristolfashion]

Most people down here with skin in the game already know what is and is not currently thought of as "legal" but until a working legal deterrent is approved they will continue to do what they consider to be sensible in the circumstances when they arise and try to protect their boat and crew.
In law that may be considered as "self defence" and "acting with reasonable force",

As the report you provided indicates, Orcas may fail to associate the deterrent methods with their activities. Prolonged use of certain methods may actually start to attract orcas.

I don't know what the defences are to prosecution under the various statutes protecting orcas in the various jurisdictions are, but using an unproven, aggressive measure against current advice doesn't seem like a great basis for a defence.

Without decent research, people might simply make matters worse - on one hand, lots of noise & flashes may attract orcas and be seen, by them, as all part of the fun. Alternatively, if a pod of orcas genuinely felt under attack, they might swiftly act to remove the threat. We simply don't know and acting in ignorance is unlikely to improve things.