Bertramdriver
Active member
Is there a "Corps Diplomatique" registration for boats. If there was it would be a dead cert that it would be popular.
New tax for foreign yachts based in Greece from 1st January 2014????
- Thread starter Chatelaine60
- Start date
Squeaky
New member
Good afternoon:
The situation you describe is created because yachts owned by companies are allowed to register in the UK, either Part 1 and possibly under the SSR. A non UK person simply has to buy an "off the shelf" company and have the yacht registered as belonging to that company if it is not already registered as belonging to a company in which case he simply buys the company and automatically acquires the registration of the yacht and the right to fly a "red duster".
I doubt very much that much can be done to prevent this situation as it is part of the system under which the wealthy use to get away with paying no tax or very little. As example just note what Starbucks and others have been discovered to have done recently to avoid or reduce the tax paid in the UK.
Cheers
Squeaky
Tranona
Well-known member
There is a lot of misunderstanding about the role of registration of boats. First it is not possible forva company to use the SSR it is only open to qualified individuals. Nor can a company fly a defaced or blue ensign as that is only available to qualifying individuals.
Registration per se does not have any tax implications. Registration only signifies the nationality of the boat and is not necessarily an indication of the nationality or residence of the owner. Boats can be registered anywhere where the owner qualifies. There can be many reasons why an owner might choose another state. For example the state where they reside may have restrictions on use or operation of boats on its register. It may be (and is in many cases) that the cost of registration and maintenance is high. There may well be reasons why an owner might want to keep his ownership remote from himself or the authorities in his country of residence, and this may of course be for tax reasons.
However to automatically equate offshore registration with tax fiddles is wrong. There are perfectly good reasons for offshore registration that are completely legal and above board. Ever day a ferry runs from Poole to the Channel Islands. Operated by a UK company, usually crewed by a French crew, owned by a consortium of banks and registered in Singapore.
Not saying that the UK flagged Greek owned boats do not present a problem, but the problem is for the Greek authorities, not with the boats being registered on the British register.
Carmel2
New member
What's the best Greek News website in English? I am trying to find out more on the 2014/15 budget approvals which I believe this tax is a small part of.
Melody
Active member
Don't know if it's the best but I use http://www.ekathimerini.com/
Tony Cross
Well-known member
Me too.
Carmel2
New member
Thanks..Melody & Tony. Bookmarked.
jimbaerselman
New member
http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_wsite2_1_09/12/2013_531399
I'm posting this because it's relevant to the Boat Tax! Why? Because the boat tax was (quite incidentally) introduced as Clause 13 of the law which outlined "the future of the Hellenic Defense Systems (EAS)" - a highly controversial sell-off. This has been read to the house, but apparently not put to the vote because support was not guaranteed. The administration is hoping the threat of the Troika deciding not to roll over the next tranche of debt will pull Syriza into line . . .
Cruising boats really are rather small beer in this game. And, as Melody's excellent post pointed out, live-aboards are indeed very small beer within the whole Greek boat park.
Those big boat owners and a Greek marina consortium are arguing the "be nice to visitors" theme very vocally in Greece, and to far greater effect than any foreign organisation could. But I very much doubt that even their noise will change the boating law wording. Everyone is looking at selling off the defence industry instead.
Oh, and while we're at it, we don't want to argue the case for coming into line with the EU Freedom of Circulation rules. Those would require boats, after 180 days residence in Greece, to meet all Greek registration requirements (including AFM registering ownership of the boat), though they could keep the original flag if they intended to return to wherever. That's the rule applied to visiting cars and camper vans. Believe me, you don't want that.
I'm posting this because it's relevant to the Boat Tax! Why? Because the boat tax was (quite incidentally) introduced as Clause 13 of the law which outlined "the future of the Hellenic Defense Systems (EAS)" - a highly controversial sell-off. This has been read to the house, but apparently not put to the vote because support was not guaranteed. The administration is hoping the threat of the Troika deciding not to roll over the next tranche of debt will pull Syriza into line . . .
Cruising boats really are rather small beer in this game. And, as Melody's excellent post pointed out, live-aboards are indeed very small beer within the whole Greek boat park.
Those big boat owners and a Greek marina consortium are arguing the "be nice to visitors" theme very vocally in Greece, and to far greater effect than any foreign organisation could. But I very much doubt that even their noise will change the boating law wording. Everyone is looking at selling off the defence industry instead.
Oh, and while we're at it, we don't want to argue the case for coming into line with the EU Freedom of Circulation rules. Those would require boats, after 180 days residence in Greece, to meet all Greek registration requirements (including AFM registering ownership of the boat), though they could keep the original flag if they intended to return to wherever. That's the rule applied to visiting cars and camper vans. Believe me, you don't want that.
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Chris_Robb
Well-known member
Seen on Ekathimerini: http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_wsite2_1_09/12/2013_531380
OTE telecoms has announced that it is looking to hire about 500 people for a variety of positions.
The company said it will know the exact number of places available once it knows how many employees accept voluntary redundancy.
OTE has called for applicants to submit their CVs by Friday, December 13.
So they are making them redundant and re-employing? I really don't understand!!!!
OTE telecoms has announced that it is looking to hire about 500 people for a variety of positions.
The company said it will know the exact number of places available once it knows how many employees accept voluntary redundancy.
OTE has called for applicants to submit their CVs by Friday, December 13.
So they are making them redundant and re-employing? I really don't understand!!!!
AndrewB
Well-known member
Thanks Steve, I always wondered who was behind Monty.
Of course, it was 'purely coincidental'
I'm sure it was all "in the best POSSIBLE taste".
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Retired in Crete
New member
Retired in Crete
New member
OTE is no longer Greek owned. It was sold at the insistence of the Troika to raise funds for Greece. Guess who bought it? A German Co! (Part of the Troika hidden agenda to buy up Greek assets at knock down prices?)
The aim is to replace the longer term, higher paid employees with lower cost employees.
So sad really, OTE was a very profitable company owned by the government. They may have got a short term influx of funds but they will loose many, many years of future profits. Selling the family silver, the short term economics of the mad house!
John
sailaboutvic
Well-known member
Melody
I read your posting with interests and I agree with some of it , but to suggest that all the big yachts are owned by corrupt people , who are mainly Greeks is in my view very un fair , just like many others yachties I too would like to see some of these big fuels guzzlers wipe of the face of the earth , but not at the cost of the rest of us , some of these boats are also owned legally and if that is the case what about all the boats under 7m who are owned and brought with as you say corruption money
As for how easy is it is to buy an house in the UK ?, have you tried buying one latterly, believe me there lot of loops one has to jump before you can buy one , you making it sound that we ie the British are making it easy for people to launder money , you can’t go into a UK bank now and bank 800 or 900 pound without being ask loads of question , I think you may have lost touch how hard the rules are in the UK now .
Someone suggest on the forum that live aboard and cruisers are small fry’s , take away the small fry’s and charter yacht and see what happens to all the marinas , taverna , shops on all the small islands and harbour where the other tourist don’t go too , then you will see people out of work .
While people sit back and make excuses for why this tax is being put on us all everyone has to remember it does just stop in Greece next year is will be some other country and before long all over Europe , just imagine sailing from Spain to Turkey and having to pay a large tax in every country you sail thought .
What would be fairer in my view is add a tax to harbour dues and marina fees , get the port police to get off there ass and collet it , that way people can pay while using harbour and marina but are not penalises just for sailing thought Greek waters that way they can still catch the big Greek own yacht under other country flags as people are putting it .
Just one other thing everyone has to remember , all of us who pay are taxes are already paying large sums into Greece to keep it going and now we are having to pay again ,
Unfair ? yes I think so .
I read your posting with interests and I agree with some of it , but to suggest that all the big yachts are owned by corrupt people , who are mainly Greeks is in my view very un fair , just like many others yachties I too would like to see some of these big fuels guzzlers wipe of the face of the earth , but not at the cost of the rest of us , some of these boats are also owned legally and if that is the case what about all the boats under 7m who are owned and brought with as you say corruption money
As for how easy is it is to buy an house in the UK ?, have you tried buying one latterly, believe me there lot of loops one has to jump before you can buy one , you making it sound that we ie the British are making it easy for people to launder money , you can’t go into a UK bank now and bank 800 or 900 pound without being ask loads of question , I think you may have lost touch how hard the rules are in the UK now .
Someone suggest on the forum that live aboard and cruisers are small fry’s , take away the small fry’s and charter yacht and see what happens to all the marinas , taverna , shops on all the small islands and harbour where the other tourist don’t go too , then you will see people out of work .
While people sit back and make excuses for why this tax is being put on us all everyone has to remember it does just stop in Greece next year is will be some other country and before long all over Europe , just imagine sailing from Spain to Turkey and having to pay a large tax in every country you sail thought .
What would be fairer in my view is add a tax to harbour dues and marina fees , get the port police to get off there ass and collet it , that way people can pay while using harbour and marina but are not penalises just for sailing thought Greek waters that way they can still catch the big Greek own yacht under other country flags as people are putting it .
Just one other thing everyone has to remember , all of us who pay are taxes are already paying large sums into Greece to keep it going and now we are having to pay again ,
Unfair ? yes I think so .
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Squeaky
New member
Good morning Sailaboutvic:
I agree with 99% of your comment however I don't think the average taxpayer in the EU or UK is contributing to the Greek bailout unless one counts the money the UK and other countries pays towards the general EU/budget or accounts.
If you want to worry about the waste of EU taxpayers funds, look at the Common Agriculture Payments (CAP) which heavily supports a small segment of the EU economies.
Cheers
Squeaky
Steve C Cronin
N/A
I too agree with Vic but for some reason I got slated heavily and called all sorts of nasty names! I certainly DO count all the money that goes into the EU as available funds for like all governmental financial resources they are really all in the same big pot and available for whatever purpose the controllers see fit. I feel like weeping sometimes when I see all those blue signs indicating how many millions or OUR money is going into projects all over Greece and how many of those projects never get finished.
Melody
Active member
There are several points I'd like to comment on. They may not be in the right order but here you go ...
You are right that I can't claim that all the big yachts are bought with illicitly obtained money. However you have to ask why a Greek owner would not register his yacht under Greek flag? It takes time, as does everything here, but it isn't particularly expensive. The obvious answer to me is that, if he did that, it would be traced to him. He'd have to give his tax number when it was registered and then declare the yacht on his Greek tax return. I still complete a UK tax return as I have some income there so I am not that out of touch. You don't have to declare the value of your house or your car or any other major assets on UK tax returns as you do on Greek tax returns. Do you have to give your tax reference when you buy a yacht in the UK? I don't think so. You do here.
Most of the smaller boats you mention are Greek flagged if they are owned by Greeks so, although they could of course be bought with black money, the owners will at least have declared them and if they have an annual income that is too small to buy a boat the tax office could investigate them.
I think you are a little naive if you think money cannot be laundered in the UK. I know of professionals here who have had offshore sterling accounts for many many years into which they get their clients to pay. I'm pretty sure this money is not declared in any country and, if it was used to buy a boat, would there be any questions asked? I don't know as I'm not in the position to test it
but I doubt it.Until very recently (and I'm not sure the law has actually been passed banning it yet) you could have a Greek company with bearer shares rather than named shares. If that company opened a subsidiary in the UK would you be able to trace who owned it? I don't know that either. We were told when we opened our company that the type of company was 'very good for putting money in the washing machine'. We've never had a need to 'wash' cash but I guess other bigger fish might do!
I personally think port dues are too low in Greece and I imagine they will be increased at some point but that would be unpopular with locals and the charter companies.
Charter companies are not small fry, by the way - don't get them confused with liveaboard private yachts. Most charter companies put millions, and the bigger ones tens of millions, each year into the Greek economy. They have a reasonable amount of clout with the government and I think their professional body is getting more professional all the time so their influence will probably increase.
Are there not already some other countries that have a tax on foreign yachts? Maybe others here can confirm that.
One thing that I disagree with is the assumption you and others make that Greece's economic crisis is solely down to the behaviour of some of its citizens. While the Greek culture was undoubtably a major contributor to the problems, there were several other international factors involved and to say it is all just the Greeks fault is unfair and ignorant.
As for putting money into Greece - most of that money is going to shore up the banks in other countries who have made loans. Very little of it is going to the Greeks which is why things are getting worse and worse for the average citizen here.
Whether or not you think a tax is unfair is irrelevant really. If you are due to pay it, you have to pay it or you are no better than the Greeks you criticise. I think it's unfair that I have to pay UK tax that allows people to draw unemployment benefit for years on end. They wouldn't be allowed to do that in Greece!
But just as I have to pay UK tax if I have an income there, you will have to pay the Greek tax if you want to sail here. If you don't want to pay it, that's fine - just sail somewhere else.
Chris_Robb
Well-known member
Steve - blue signs not only in Greece but France etc - I scarcely ever have seen one in the UK!
Chris_Robb
Well-known member
Port Taxes: If they were to charge by the book a 12 meter yacht is due to pay for 1 night some €26. ie the proper charge is 2 days. This is excessive for a rough concrete quay and nothing else. However we have been charged as little as €7 per night which I would agree is probably on the low side. We have been charged €26 many times in the Ionian, but it depended each time not on the port but who was on duty.
If they had a clear charge that everyone knew what they would pay AND they removed the idiocracy of "come to Port Police" but collected on board each boat, there would be a startling increase in income. What level would be correct? €10 per night? At €26 I don't pay.
As for money into Greece - the bailout funds are indeed going else where, but they are still drawing on the structural funds from the EU to which we are a major contributor.
Bertramdriver
Active member
Melody, it truly is tougher to launder money through the UK now, as a large number of oligarchs are finding.
Put the databases of HMRC together with the company's register, the land registry, DVLA, MCA and the " privatised banks." And I assure you they do, with every credit card, BACS transfer, and every other cash movement being tracked The only way you can launder money now is either billion dollar defence contracts or your local launderette. Just pray you don't attract their attention.
BTW going offshore is no longer any help. The EU govts made a treaty a few years ago which resulted in every offshore centre (including Switzerland) submitting a list of their clients to the EU/HMRC or being shut down. So if you hold an offshore account you either have to submit a HMRC exemption certificate or accept that you account will have 20 % of the value of the account withheld from your use. You would not believe the grief I got from the revenue over a dormant Channel Islands account with € 52 in it.
That list was made available to the Greek revenue authorities but has never been acted on.
Put the databases of HMRC together with the company's register, the land registry, DVLA, MCA and the " privatised banks." And I assure you they do, with every credit card, BACS transfer, and every other cash movement being tracked The only way you can launder money now is either billion dollar defence contracts or your local launderette. Just pray you don't attract their attention.
BTW going offshore is no longer any help. The EU govts made a treaty a few years ago which resulted in every offshore centre (including Switzerland) submitting a list of their clients to the EU/HMRC or being shut down. So if you hold an offshore account you either have to submit a HMRC exemption certificate or accept that you account will have 20 % of the value of the account withheld from your use. You would not believe the grief I got from the revenue over a dormant Channel Islands account with € 52 in it.
That list was made available to the Greek revenue authorities but has never been acted on.
pmyatt
New member
The above is all true however, if you become "resident" in Malaysia and "non-resident" in the UK, any income generated outside the UK is not subject to UK tax and any income generated outside Malaysia is not subject to Malaysian tax. Langkawi is pleasant throughout the year. . . . . .