1bobt
N/A
....
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New tax for foreign yachts based in Greece from 1st January 2014????
- Thread starter Chatelaine60
- Start date
jimbaerselman
New member
Not quite, but very close. My reading of the translation for boats above 12m (ie, not 12m, which is not "above") means:
1. If you're on the hard, you're not in Greek waters, so you don't need a receipt.
2. When you launch, you're in the water, and you'll need a receipt.
3. You may choose before launch (or on first arrival in Greece):
a. pay for one month (we don't know whether that is calendar, or 30 days from payment)
b. pay for a year full rate
c. Pay for a year with 30% discount (if criteria to be defined can be met)
These are our interpretations using a good translation. We'll be seeking confirmation of them. Official interpretations may differ.
Jim B, for the CA.
Bertramdriver
Active member
Thank you Jim. I just hope you're right
Steve C Cronin
N/A
Well, actually, many years ago, probably long before you and a lot more here appeared on the scene, I mentioned to fellow berth holders on the same pontoon that I posted on these forums. Responses like "You don't do you?" or just "Really!" were quite common. We stopped getting invited to parties, for a while, too! Now, I wonder why that was? Incidentally, I keep the fact to myself now! The management and staff in our marina happen to agree that the "tax" is unjust. As to my other postings on these forums, you are invited to do a search and you will find that i post many responses to requests for assistance. FAR more than some of the "Lounge"'s regulars some of whom are just out to make political points and one wonders if they have ever been to sea in a small boat at all!
The Greeks cannot justify this "tax" except to say that it is to help them get out of financial difficulties of their OWN making and they consider it perfectly reasonable .
Greece is a lovely country. We have been visiting it regularly and sailing there, since 1978 and kept a boat there since 2002. We have made many friends there both indigenous and outsider but I cannot forgive the fact that many people there don't support their country properly with their obvious wealth and that the financial structure is a shambles. Now my means of accomodation and circulation there is being charged disproportionately to an average Greek owned boat in this new taxation arrangement. He only needs a smaller boat than mine to leisure fish or take a spin around the bay, so not only am I being asked to pay disproportionately more than the locals but at the Loa where MOST liveaboard boats start, there is a huge leap in cost/metre length. Personally, I find that somewhat inequitous. Ask me to pay a levy for wearing out their roads more than a local and I will pay it. Ask me to assist in funding the schools because my children attend a Greek school and I will pay it. However, this charge has none of the benefits to all associated with those two public entities. It is, in reality, simply like being told that you MUST, under penalty of law, pay a beggar, begging in the streets*, the moment you fetch up in Greece.
*Actually, I nearly always hand over a €1 or 50L coin to the Greek services veteran amputee who waits outside the AB Supermarket in Kontokali in his wheelchair, most days.
Anyway, I have just finished my tiny, tiny glass of Tsipouro and it is way past my bedtime.
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charles_reed
Active member
In defence of Steve (who I have met) he's a delightful chap who only shows his tail, horns and cloven hooves on these forums.
(And I'm one of his most persistent critics).
It is sad to see any thread degenerate into personal abuse and, in defence, any internet thread has the unfortunate lack of 60% of subjective communication offered by body language. So what was intended as good-natured joshing can be perceived as all-out attack by the recipient.
(And I'm one of his most persistent critics).
It is sad to see any thread degenerate into personal abuse and, in defence, any internet thread has the unfortunate lack of 60% of subjective communication offered by body language. So what was intended as good-natured joshing can be perceived as all-out attack by the recipient.
Appleyard
Well-known member
Where and when was that ?
Steve C Cronin
N/A
Sorry Charles, can't remember having had the pleasure!
1bobt
N/A
Yeah, were you not ,Monty the Mountie & the Crimson Vicar, and numerous others AKA`s ,that was one of the reasons that the forum closed in the late nineties
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vyv_cox
Well-known member
If he was Monty the Mountie my opinion of him has gone up!
Steve C Cronin
N/A
I have been accused of many things on these forums over the years and had my words twisted and mis-interpreted on almost a daily basis. I do not claim to be unique in this respect.
However, to put the record back on the rails of accuracy and truth, I will admit to having had a hand up the back of the following - Monty (but he was "the Mounty" NOT Mountie - sexual connotation, see? Revd Basil Torrington - my favourite and to stealing the identity of my one time employee from the Balkans, Miss Kentrina Irby, who's whereabouts, sadly, I no longer know. I had been given a four week ban but some six months later it was still in force! Can't help you with any of the other aliases you mention and for you to suggest that I had anything to do with the temporary closing of the forum is pure mischief of the worst kind as it gives rise to the sort of inuendo that is being described over on the lounge at the moment.
Bertramdriver
Active member
Thank you for the clarification, I feel much better but I must advise you that assuming multiple personalities is a psychiatric illness but is treatable. There is hope for you
akyaka
New member
Steve C Cronin
N/A
Chuckle chuckle!
Melody
Active member
Steve, after reading your posts it seems to me that you have misunderstood the purpose of this tax. You seem to think it is aimed at you rather than Greeks. As far as I am aware, it's quite the opposite.
I don't know what it's like in the Ionian but if you walk around any of the smarter Aegean ports at weekends or in August you'll see a huge number of very big, very expensive yachts. The marinas are full of them as well. Almost all of these will be foreign flagged, almost all will be owned by Greeks. Among them British flagged boats feature highly - a cruising friend used to call them BMA yachts (British My A**e). The owners have registered them under a flag of convenience to avoid questions about their tax affairs.
If these owners registered their boats as Greek they'd be required to give their tax number and, if they had not declared sufficient income to own and run a boat of that type, they would be investigated.
Unfortunately it seems it is extremely easy to buy a boat and register it in the UK, for instance, with no questions asked. The same goes for property by the way. A lot of the corruption money goes this way. This is money that was genuinely 'stolen' and you can't compare it to paying a legitimate tax, however much you dislike it.
Imagine you are a Greek who has had his or her wages cut to around 3 euro per hour, or you've lost your job, your kids can't get work and the younger children are losing out on an education because there are no books and the teachers aren't getting paid. How do you think you would feel towards these 'foreign flagged' boats that your wealthy countrymen are flaunting in front of you?
There has been enormous pressure for the Greek government to do something about these boats for the past few years. I believe previous attempts have failed because the tax inevitably catches genuine visitors to the country and they have tried to avoid that but I think this time they will do their best to go ahead. They have to be seen to be tackling this somehow as the yachts are such an obvious token of corruption and theft.
They aren't after the person with a small boat, which I guess is why there is a jump at 12m. Their targets are the big foreign flagged yachts owned by wealthy Greeks who have not paid sufficient tax. From what you say you should be in favour of them taxing these people, many of whom who have managed to get these boats by corruption and tax avoidance in the first place.
However, I cannot see a method for them to hit these 'British' yachts and exempt other British yachts which is why you will be hit too.
You are not a target - just collateral damage.
I don't know what it's like in the Ionian but if you walk around any of the smarter Aegean ports at weekends or in August you'll see a huge number of very big, very expensive yachts. The marinas are full of them as well. Almost all of these will be foreign flagged, almost all will be owned by Greeks. Among them British flagged boats feature highly - a cruising friend used to call them BMA yachts (British My A**e). The owners have registered them under a flag of convenience to avoid questions about their tax affairs.
If these owners registered their boats as Greek they'd be required to give their tax number and, if they had not declared sufficient income to own and run a boat of that type, they would be investigated.
Unfortunately it seems it is extremely easy to buy a boat and register it in the UK, for instance, with no questions asked. The same goes for property by the way. A lot of the corruption money goes this way. This is money that was genuinely 'stolen' and you can't compare it to paying a legitimate tax, however much you dislike it.
Imagine you are a Greek who has had his or her wages cut to around 3 euro per hour, or you've lost your job, your kids can't get work and the younger children are losing out on an education because there are no books and the teachers aren't getting paid. How do you think you would feel towards these 'foreign flagged' boats that your wealthy countrymen are flaunting in front of you?
There has been enormous pressure for the Greek government to do something about these boats for the past few years. I believe previous attempts have failed because the tax inevitably catches genuine visitors to the country and they have tried to avoid that but I think this time they will do their best to go ahead. They have to be seen to be tackling this somehow as the yachts are such an obvious token of corruption and theft.
They aren't after the person with a small boat, which I guess is why there is a jump at 12m. Their targets are the big foreign flagged yachts owned by wealthy Greeks who have not paid sufficient tax. From what you say you should be in favour of them taxing these people, many of whom who have managed to get these boats by corruption and tax avoidance in the first place.
However, I cannot see a method for them to hit these 'British' yachts and exempt other British yachts which is why you will be hit too.
You are not a target - just collateral damage.
BrianH
Active member
Yes, the "collateral damage" is understood but it would have been easy to exclude the genuine foreign-flagged visitor of a few weeks from paying for a year. Surely these are the greatest victims of this new tax and will result in less numbers sailing to Greece from neighbouring countries for their summer vacation - especially Italy.
Then again, Summer sees plenty of Italian ensigns in Croatia where similar costs on visiting yachts apply, so maybe not.
Then again, Summer sees plenty of Italian ensigns in Croatia where similar costs on visiting yachts apply, so maybe not.
Tony Cross
Well-known member
I have been told, though I have not seen it in writing, that the "over 12m" tax stops at 24m. So someone owning a 40m superyacht pays only €2400 and not €4000. So it's the people in the 12m to 24m length bracket who are being hit the hardest. Apparently the 24m limit was set so that the super-rich and very influential superyacht owners wouldn't scupper this tax they way the did the earlier attempts.
Squeaky
New member
Good morning:
I think Melody has hit the nail on the head and covers the real situation as it stands. I think we should, in some way, support the action of the government in their efforts to force the "big boys" to pay taxes on their assets even though it may make life a little bit more difficult for us. Ultimately I don't think the "big boys" will miss the money they pay in taxes as much as those of us on the lower income scale but I welcome the efforts being made.
I think efforts were made in the past to achieve this without any success and really hope this law will be effective even though it will add to my costs if I visit Greece in the future.
I can second the comments about the effect on many Greeks on the lower portion of the "totem pole of life". A retired friend had her pension cut from 1,200 Euros to 800 Euros overnight and her son had to join his brother in Ireland as he just could not find employment in Greece. Her loss of 400 Euros a month was impossible to avoid as she had no chance to re-locate aboard in order to retain the 400 Euros. Those with yachts have that opportunity even though it may not fit into their plans but as Melody quite rightly states this is "just collateral damage" or unintended consequences.
Let's just hope that the new law achieves the aim if it is intended to do what I think it is.
Cheers
Squeaky
1bobt
N/A
Very well put
But as you will know these rich owners will find away around the problem ,just look in the port on a Friday they even have spaces reserved on the quay ,certain boats being moved 5 mins before they arrive, to make space.
And when have you ever seen the Man and Woman working for the Port Authority, ever asking them to pay a port fee.?
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Caladh
Well-known member
+1 for Melody's input. It is intersting to note that non-UK nationals are even allowed to keep their boats registered under the Red or Blue ensigns. I do find it distasteful to see Red Dusters on boats that are patently owned by other nationalities. I went to chat to a Uk flagged yacht in Croatia this year and was met by a blank stare 'cos the guy didn't speak English. One of the crew did, explaining the flag was used for "tax puposes - you will understand!"
Perhaps there should be a law to prohibit this action. Once a Greek purchases a UK (or other EU) registered boat, if the owner is a Greek national then the flag must be changed ? Of course they'd get round that by getting a non-Greek national to buy it in the first place - bu**er !!!
I also guess "our" side of SSR could be tightend up as well although it is a forlorn hope I think. Steve I appreciated the non-rant reply !
Perhaps there should be a law to prohibit this action. Once a Greek purchases a UK (or other EU) registered boat, if the owner is a Greek national then the flag must be changed ? Of course they'd get round that by getting a non-Greek national to buy it in the first place - bu**er !!!
I also guess "our" side of SSR could be tightend up as well although it is a forlorn hope I think. Steve I appreciated the non-rant reply !
BrianH
Active member
A recent thread on here confirms the 'red duster' as a flag of convenience. So in an ironic way, the UK expatriates can partly blame their own registration authority for the sweeping legislation that we will suffer. True, other possibilities exist for registration but that is scant excuse.