Net zero hits boating !

[jrudge]

Most boats generally sit still all week and go out at the weekend. So a power supply capable of delivering say 80% of battery capacity over a 5 day period would be fine for most berths. Sure that's an upgrade over the current setup, but at the rate of new boat sales it doesn't have to be done overnight....
Then just have a few rapid chargers for those going out the next day - a fairly basic 50kW charger ought to be able to charge your 500KWh MOBO overnight. And a couple of super rapid 350KW chargers for faster top ups.

That absolutely could be done, the obstacle is funding and requiring the first people to take the leap. In the land of EV cars it required a brand to come along and decide to do both the cars and the chargers. Can't see that happening any time soon in the boating world though.

You are giving a U.K. perspective.

I am in the med. I am on the boat for 8 weeks over summer and we move every day. We either tour ( last year Mallorca to Antibes ) or go locally. If local let be honest it is likely 20 miles not 75 by air con / water maker / gyro will be running continually all of which take a hit of power.

If we are cruising we will easily do 75 miles in a day.

So to work ( with a 75 mile limit which most won't find ok as you could not even do Mallorcas to the mainland in it ) you must be able to charge overnight.

Boats move !

 

[PaulRainbow]

I don’t know what boat you have but reducing down from 10 knots a bit might halve your fuel burn !

MK1 Princess 45. At 10kts, working with the tides, we burn 18-20 ltrs an hour (roughly calculated).

 

[flaming]

A number of points:

We burn fallen wood in our wood burner.

A lot of car journeys are leisure these days.

Even more flights are taken for leisure purposes. Will we be banning the foreign holiday?

Worldwide I’m not sure we will ever see the electrical takeover of cars / light goods vehicles. A few highly developed countries are seeing some penetration, by the time it spreads worldwide the technology will have been superseded.

I still come back to the fact that unlike aeroplanes boats do have the ability to reduce speed down to ultra frugal fuel consumption levels. Planes essentially have a single speed or at best very narrow window of operation which burns huge amounts of fuel.

Privately used boats are already reducing fuel burn by going slowly, I see it a lot as we work the Solent.

I see things rather differently.

Firstly, I disagree about EV. The thing that I think a lot of people who haven't driven one miss is that quite apart from the environmental and air pollution aspects, there are several advantages over ICE powered vehicles. Even if you developed now an entirely carbon free ICE engine, I would not switch back. And then once we do get significant penetration it's hard to see what technology could come along in the time frame required to supersede EV that would be so superior to persuade people that it's worth setting up an entirely new logistics chain to deliver it to vehicles. What advantage would it offer over EV? Certainly won't be hydrogen.

The point about flights is valid. But look at it this way, if we managed to completely decarbonise electricity production, and switch ground transport away from fossil fuels, the amount of CO2 that is left from Aviation and shipping is so small of an issue as to be almost not worth looking at.

 

[flaming]

How would you see the life expectancy of batteries being integrated within the overall environment impact of your plan?

In particular the occasional / seasonal use. Once a battery is discharged it tends to be damaged and I know there is a preferred cycle in terms of how deep you discharge between charges.

I’m going to totally ignore the infrastructure issues even though it’s hard enough to find a 32 amp feed where we are let alone anything of the size you mention. Even the 16 amp supplies are flimsy.

There are now plenty of examples of EVs that have done hundreds of thousands of miles on a battery. A recent one had a Tesla that had done 215k miles and still had 88% of it's original capacity. Even if it had done all 215,000 of those miles at 70mph, then it would be over 3000 hours of running. A more realistic 30mph average (it was a taxi) gives 7100 ish hours of running. And over 1000 battery cycles. And it's still going strong.

And that's with battery tech that is now some 5 years old.

How does that sort of engine hours and cycles compare with your usage? How many years of your use would that be?

On the seasonal use, there have also been studies done with EVs that have sat for a while, when the owners went abroad for a year etc. If left plugged in just to a standard 240v socket and occasionally topping themselves up to counter battery drain, as you would with a boat, there was no measurable degradation of the battery.

 

[flaming]

You are giving a U.K. perspective.

I am in the med. I am on the boat for 8 weeks over summer and we move every day. We either tour ( last year Mallorca to Antibes ) or go locally. If local let be honest it is likely 20 miles not 75 by air con / water maker / gyro will be running continually all of which take a hit of power.

If we are cruising we will easily do 75 miles in a day.

So to work ( with a 75 mile limit which most won't find ok as you could not even do Mallorcas to the mainland in it ) you must be able to charge overnight.

Boats move !

For sure, when on a cruise it's that overnight charging. But rather like with motorway EV charging, that's the exception not the rule. You absolutely need the infrastructure to make the whole things work, but for most boat, most of the time, the power can be delivered slowly.

 

[henryf]

@flaming

There is a part in the EV story which you’re missing and is just starting to open up, certainly in the UK.

You love EV. I’m guessing you bought new and hand back to the dealer every 2-3 years? You might even have the benefit of a company funded car with tax benefits.

At some point the car enters the second hand market where various layers of buyers purchase at varying price points. Typically this continues until the car is 20 years old or in the case of a non EV Porsche 40 years plus.

With EV the used buyer is faced with a potentially massive bill when the batteries fail, typically at 8-12 years. This means EV depreciate horrifically and get scrapped early in their life. You don’t care because when you want out at 3 years there’s a buyer but further down the line there isn’t and we’re just starting to see that now as EVs age.

The examples you quote for battery life are for new regularly used vehicles. Commercial trucks do millions of miles and 20-30,000 hours but an older boat might need major surgery at 1,000 hours due to the age / use curve. The same will be true of battery life. It isn’t just cycles, it’s age as well.

 

[flaming]

@flaming

There is a part in the EV story which you’re missing and is just starting to open up, certainly in the UK.

You love EV. I’m guessing you bought new and hand back to the dealer every 2-3 years? You might even have the benefit of a company funded car with tax benefits.

At some point the car enters the second hand market where various layers of buyers purchase at varying price points. Typically this continues until the car is 20 years old or in the case of a non EV Porsche 40 years plus.

With EV the used buyer is faced with a potentially massive bill when the batteries fail, typically at 8-12 years. This means EV depreciate horrifically and get scrapped early in their life. You don’t care because when you want out at 3 years there’s a buyer but further down the line there isn’t and we’re just starting to see that now as EVs age.

The examples you quote for battery life are for new regularly used vehicles. Commercial trucks do millions of miles and 20-30,000 hours but an older boat might need major surgery at 1,000 hours due to the age / use curve. The same will be true of battery life. It isn’t just cycles, it’s age as well.

There is really no evidence that EV batteries are failing. In fact the body of evidence is very much starting to point the other way.

I'm afraid you're falling for the scaremongering. And to say they fail "typically at 8-12 years...

The first mass made longish range EV available in the UK with battery management and cooling akin to today was the Tesla model 3. The first of them was sold in 2019. So we're not even at 8 years for the very oldest yet. So I'm really not sure how you can say they fail "typically at 8-12 years" when there really aren't any that are that old yet!

For sure long term battery health is still really an unknown, but if you're listening to people telling you that batteries are failing at an age that no battery that was fitted with temperature management etc has yet got to, then I'm afraid your sources are not being honest with what is, and is not, relevant to the sort of battery and control systems that would be fitted to a modern car, let alone a hypothetical boat built in a decade or so.

Here's a study into the model S battery degradation, over about 10 years.

A Study on Real-Life Tesla Battery Deterioration

 

[kashurst]

@flaming

There is a part in the EV story which you’re missing and is just starting to open up, certainly in the UK.

You love EV. I’m guessing you bought new and hand back to the dealer every 2-3 years? You might even have the benefit of a company funded car with tax benefits.

At some point the car enters the second hand market where various layers of buyers purchase at varying price points. Typically this continues until the car is 20 years old or in the case of a non EV Porsche 40 years plus.

With EV the used buyer is faced with a potentially massive bill when the batteries fail, typically at 8-12 years. This means EV depreciate horrifically and get scrapped early in their life. You don’t care because when you want out at 3 years there’s a buyer but further down the line there isn’t and we’re just starting to see that now as EVs age.

The examples you quote for battery life are for new regularly used vehicles. Commercial trucks do millions of miles and 20-30,000 hours but an older boat might need major surgery at 1,000 hours due to the age / use curve. The same will be true of battery life. It isn’t just cycles, it’s age as well.

EV batteries are a large collection of individual cells, grouped in modules that are all monitored independentally.
Yes it is possible some cells may fail - like anything. However it is perfectly possible to replace the relevant module and/or cell. Lots of companies can do this now. Batteries do age with time, but if left at less than 50% charge for long periods of idleness that slows down. Plus the battery technology is moving forwards very fast so what may be used in future will not be the same structure and chemistry as we have today. The early Nissan leafs had poor battery life, the EVs being built today have batteries that show plenty of evidence they will outlast the car.

It is probably impossible to build a battery powered 50 - 60 foot planing boat. The energy requirement is way to high. Given the number of such large machines built each year and the fact that most don't get a lot of serious use means in the scheme of things they are pretty irrelevant. But they are not invisible. National debts are rising, economic growth is slowing and people are getting poorer.
It is probably possible to build a big displacement boat or catamaran that will go a long way on batteries alone and be chargeable overnight.
But is is clearly very possible to build 25 to 35 foot hydrofoiling boats that can do a reasonable distance and charge on a 32 amp shore power connector overnight. It won't be long and we will have 40 foot boats which would suit many people perfectly well with massively less running costs.

What will cause the change will be some sort of legislation national or local. I believe the Americans have been looking at emissions of boats over 90 feet long and wanting something done about the exhaust emissions. Apparenty it is possible to put catalysts and DPF filters on boat engines but you need a lot of room and space to do it and it is very expensive. Viking Boats believe it will kill the +90 foot market. Sooner or later the beady eye of politicians will be looking sub 90 feet. The other possibility is popular boating locations introducing charges and/or taxes depending upon the drive train and generators etc. Companies like Greenline and now Jeaneau Group who can build some sort of hybrid boats could take advantage of this especially in charter fleets. They could and probably are lobbying for it.

I doubt many of us will live long enough for this to be an issue, but it IS a long term issue for the serious builders.

Boating is all about living and having fun on the water. Big diesel planing boats used to be the thing in motorboating. It clearly doesn't have to be the only way to motor boat. If the running costs of big mobos and/or the emissions become a problem we can always go sailing instead. Some of the multihull boats and hydrofoil boats are seriously fast.

 

[Refueler]

@flaming

There is a part in the EV story which you’re missing and is just starting to open up, certainly in the UK.

You love EV. I’m guessing you bought new and hand back to the dealer every 2-3 years? You might even have the benefit of a company funded car with tax benefits.

At some point the car enters the second hand market where various layers of buyers purchase at varying price points. Typically this continues until the car is 20 years old or in the case of a non EV Porsche 40 years plus.

With EV the used buyer is faced with a potentially massive bill when the batteries fail, typically at 8-12 years. This means EV depreciate horrifically and get scrapped early in their life. You don’t care because when you want out at 3 years there’s a buyer but further down the line there isn’t and we’re just starting to see that now as EVs age.

The examples you quote for battery life are for new regularly used vehicles. Commercial trucks do millions of miles and 20-30,000 hours but an older boat might need major surgery at 1,000 hours due to the age / use curve. The same will be true of battery life. It isn’t just cycles, it’s age as well.

I was reading an interview of a business Lady - she was CEO of one of the largest 2nd hand Car dealerships in UK. The interview was about her decision to no longer accept EV's in Part Ex .....

As she explained - it did not matter if 2yrs old or more - the cost to her business in terms of replacement batterys - disposal of old etc was so out of touch and making the transactions barely profitable. If she tried to set the prices to necessary for viability - the buyer was not interested.

I would also point out that already we start to see signs of Govt's looking at the Tax revenues ... with the phasing out of Fuel vehicles - that's a huge revenue loss ... and the concessions with EV purchase will not remain much longer ... the govts will want to have their cake and eat it ...

 

[TonyR123]

Like jrudge, I am (and alot in the med) out most days. 75 miles seems about right on avg - I will go to the east or west of Mallorca from Portals. I tend to cruise at 30 knots. So assume around 2.5 hours at cruise speed. Or around 700 litres in fuel per day (30 knots is 300lph). Some rough maths that would be 4500 kWh in battery terms. Got to need a min of 500 kWh charger back in port - just for me - and assuming the charger is not scaled back the more that are connected. I would say in peak months at least 20% of the boats are out. Cannot see it ever working. But luckily as in Spain, I doubt the Spanish would commit net zero suicide.

Having said that I would like an electric Williams 325, but based on the evoJet 70e that looks a long way away before it usable. Read somewhere it has 3 mins at top speed. We wakeboard quite a bit. Foiling however does work, so maybe all boats will need to foil if electric

 

[Refueler]

Today I had advantage of Electrics ..... had to go collect my Volvo from across town ... jump on the E-scooter instead of dragging my gardener and car to give me a lift ..

That sort of thing I can support - sensible use of E-Power units ... viable ... saving silly use of fuel vehicle for short run etc.

But that's road vehicle ... and can always walk if the battery dies .... but a boat ??

 

[henryf]

@flaming

So your good battery technology is 6 years old or less.

The oldest EV I know of is the Nissan leaf which had huge battery drop off by 12 years old. My 8 year figure is pessimistic but I wouldn’t want to be guaranteeing batteries beyond 12 years.

The problem is those less well off used car buyers buying older vehicles with their own money want more than just words of hope. They are often harder to please than people buying new. Older used EV’s are simply not worth much money. People are getting their fingers burnt.

There isn’t even the long range hope when older ICE cars become classics and bounce back in value. Every single Tesla will be scrapped. There will never be a classic market for them. The technology within EVs is so complex with central control systems that they will become un-repairable. EVs are essentially white goods.

 

[kashurst]

I was reading an interview of a business Lady - she was CEO of one of the largest 2nd hand Car dealerships in UK. The interview was about her decision to no longer accept EV's in Part Ex .....

As she explained - it did not matter if 2yrs old or more - the cost to her business in terms of replacement batterys - disposal of old etc was so out of touch and making the transactions barely profitable. If she tried to set the prices to necessary for viability - the buyer was not interested.

I would also point out that already we start to see signs of Govt's looking at the Tax revenues ... with the phasing out of Fuel vehicles - that's a huge revenue loss ... and the concessions with EV purchase will not remain much longer ... the govts will want to have their cake and eat it ...

Do you have any reference or link to that?

 

[kashurst]

@flaming

So your good battery technology is 6 years old or less.

The oldest EV I know of is the Nissan leaf which had huge battery drop off by 12 years old. My 8 year figure is pessimistic but I wouldn’t want to be guaranteeing batteries beyond 12 years.

The problem is those less well off used car buyers buying older vehicles with their own money want more than just words of hope. They are often harder to please than people buying new. Older used EV’s are simply not worth much money. People are getting their fingers burnt.

There isn’t even the long range hope when older ICE cars become classics and bounce back in value. Every single Tesla will be scrapped. There will never be a classic market for them. The technology within EVs is so complex with central control systems that they will become un-repairable. EVs are essentially white goods.

The EV genie is well out of the bottle and won't be going back in.
People can either try and ignore it and hope it goes away or embrace it and use it.
As to being complex they are less complicated than a modern ICE car and a lot less parts.

 

[flaming]

@flaming

So your good battery technology is 6 years old or less.

The oldest EV I know of is the Nissan leaf which had huge battery drop off by 12 years old. My 8 year figure is pessimistic but I wouldn’t want to be guaranteeing batteries beyond 12 years.

The problem is those less well off used car buyers buying older vehicles with their own money want more than just words of hope. They are often harder to please than people buying new. Older used EV’s are simply not worth much money. People are getting their fingers burnt.

There isn’t even the long range hope when older ICE cars become classics and bounce back in value. Every single Tesla will be scrapped. There will never be a classic market for them. The technology within EVs is so complex with central control systems that they will become un-repairable. EVs are essentially white goods.

Ok...

1. The leaf did have huge battery drop off. This is well known, and due to that car NOT having thermal management on its battery. The performance of the early leafs in terms of battery degradation is simply not analogous to how a battery built today performs. This aspect of the Leaf has arguably done more to fuel sceptics than anything else. But, simply is NOT valid for modern cars.
2. Values of second hand EVs are in fact RISING as the cars with better tech enter the second hand market. If you don't believe me go check out the prices of 4 year old Polestar 2 cars, and compare to 4 year old BMW 3 series. Basically the same, for what are fairly similar cars.
3. Yes. Cars are white goods. They always have been. Average age at scrappage now is about 16 years. Average mileage about 123k. There is ever more evidence that getting to those figures, and well beyond, is not going to be an issue for EVs.

But really this discussion is supposed to be about boats, and the issue there is that what people enjoy now for their motor boats simply isn't going to work with an EV powertrain, unless there's an absolute step change in battery energy density.

So really the bigger question is - how do we continue to enjoy the sea and the coast in boats after fossil fuels become either banned or ludicrously expensive?

 

[Refueler]

Do you have any reference or link to that?

It was online and may have been reported via BBC World ... it was late last year if I remember ... the link I will no longer have - sorry.

 

[henryf]

Ok...

1. The leaf did have huge battery drop off. This is well known, and due to that car NOT having thermal management on its battery. The performance of the early leafs in terms of battery degradation is simply not analogous to how a battery built today performs. This aspect of the Leaf has arguably done more to fuel sceptics than anything else. But, simply is NOT valid for modern cars.
2. Values of second hand EVs are in fact RISING as the cars with better tech enter the second hand market. If you don't believe me go check out the prices of 4 year old Polestar 2 cars, and compare to 4 year old BMW 3 series. Basically the same, for what are fairly similar cars.
3. Yes. Cars are white goods. They always have been. Average age at scrappage now is about 16 years. Average mileage about 123k. There is ever more evidence that getting to those figures, and well beyond, is not going to be an issue for EVs.

But really this discussion is supposed to be about boats, and the issue there is that what people enjoy now for their motor boats simply isn't going to work with an EV powertrain, unless there's an absolute step change in battery energy density.

So really the bigger question is - how do we continue to enjoy the sea and the coast in boats after fossil fuels become either banned or ludicrously expensive?

Obviously the Leaf is real world actual. The new technology is theoretical because we haven’t reached 12 years yet. Am I confident to invest £2 million in an electric boat? No.

Re: rising EV prices - try telling that to Porsche Taycan (and similar) owners

£120k down to £40k in the blink of a tearful eye. Real world.

 

[Refueler]

Obviously the Leaf is real world actual. The new technology is theoretical because we haven’t reached 12 years yet. Am I confident to invest £2 million in an electric boat? No.

Re: rising EV prices - try telling that to Porsche Taycan (and similar) owners

£120k down to £40k in the blink of a tearful eye. Real world.

AND mentioning Porsche ... the dealers sequential ownership deal ... where buy so many bottom end and then you "may" be allowed to buy the GT3 RS etc ... !!

Check it out - fact !

 

[henryf]

AND mentioning Porsche ... the dealers sequential ownership deal ... where buy so many bottom end and then you "may" be allowed to buy the GT3 RS etc ... !!

Check it out - fact !

Porsche AG’s decision to limit production of vehicles which represent the brand’s core values such as the GT3, GT4 and so on provided a rich breeding ground for dealers to exploit underhand methods. It’s not something I agree with or can see the benefit of. In many cases the hyped up premiums have now evaporated leaving owners out of pocket hundreds of thousands of pounds.

Thankfully in the boating world you hand over your deposit and get in line. The only question is how long the wait is but your business is welcomed.

 

[st599]

Like jrudge, I am (and alot in the med) out most days. 75 miles seems about right on avg - I will go to the east or west of Mallorca from Portals. I tend to cruise at 30 knots. So assume around 2.5 hours at cruise speed. Or around 700 litres in fuel per day (30 knots is 300lph). Some rough maths that would be 4500 kWh in battery terms. Got to need a min of 500 kWh charger back in port - just for me - and assuming the charger is not scaled back the more that are connected. I would say in peak months at least 20% of the boats are out. Cannot see it ever working. But luckily as in Spain, I doubt the Spanish would commit net zero suicide.

Having said that I would like an electric Williams 325, but based on the evoJet 70e that looks a long way away before it usable. Read somewhere it has 3 mins at top speed. We wakeboard quite a bit. Foiling however does work, so maybe all boats will need to foil if electric

Not sure it will need a 500kWH charger.

When road fuel production drops, the cost of fuel will increase. Once uneconomic to operate, other boats will be needed. They may or may not have the same performance available.