Net zero hits boating !

[kashurst]

Doom and gloom have been going on for years...even this forum 20 yeas ago was said to fail....still waiting.....I think most of us will be mystic meg (dead) and the doom and gloom will continue.

It's only doom and gloom if you perceive net zero as a threat or something you can ignore long term.
For those with a more enlightened view it is opportunity.

 

[westernman]

Candela – Hydrofoiling Electric Boats – The world’s only fast and long-range electric boat.
LOOKER 450S
Artemis Technologies | The Future Of Clean Maritime Transport
First foiling luxury yacht for private individuals
Navier — The Boat of the Future

As yet nothing biggger than 45', but give it time. Hydrofoiling and/or electric boats will start to replace planing boats. It wouldn't be hard to convert that 12m hydrofoiling electric ferry into a cruiser.

First foiling luxury yacht for private individuals

Nice. But the range at cruising speed is just 50nm.
Now with a boat, you don't need to stop to pee and there are no recharging stations on the way from Barcelona to Ibiza.

 

[st599]

Given the low usage of most recreational boats the actual fuel saving versus carbon cost of electrifying a boat over 20 years (and 2 sets of propulsion batteries) simply doesn't add up.

1) How many Hydrocarbons are used in making a fibreglass boat - will they still be extracted in numbers large enough to build boats?
2) The fuel for your boats is cheap because it is a bye product of road usage. When road usage in ICE cars decreases, the cost per liter to produce will increase, then when Road Haulage moves over, it will increase again. It won't require taxation to make it unaffordable, it will become unaffordable as road usage declines.

There is, or used to be, an electric ferry operating in La Rochelle. It ran between the outer marina (near a popular bathing beach) and the town. It had solar panels on the roof and, between trips, the coxswain plugged a charging cable into a socket on the pontoon.

Red Funnel are getting ready to use one, Thames clippers have them.

The UK had one of the best industrial R&D industries - the UK boating industry needs to be spending heavily on R&D now - or it won't exist.

 

[ari]

Interesting you think I am on a different subject. I said the UK manufacturers are slowly killing themselves. To see that look at the financial numbers. If you do that you can see that they do not make any money. Princess are in a terrible state and Sunseeker this year made a net profit of I think £3 million on a turnover of £340 million give or take. That is not long term viable. If it was not in some way a glamourous business these companies would have been abandoned years ago.

Net zero, what ever people think is not going away. The demands of it will only grow over the years as these government studies/reports allude to. Businesses can use legislation to create long term advantage. If they are paying attention they can help shape that legislation to their advantage. And they will, they will also lay technological booby traps to block competitors. The UK builders productivity issues are definitely not going away so the remaining builders need to do somethng very different. Just rearranging the furniture on ever bigger boat design that still doesn't make any money is not a winning business plan. It's no plan at all regardless of if they make 30 boats or 300 boats. Volume is not profit. If you aren't making real profit you aren't creating a good cash flow.

For the UK builders to prosper they must change dramatically. Productivity improvements are a must have, They have to catch up with the Italians and French etc just to stay alive. But is that enough? I don't think so because then all they will have as a USP is that they are "made in Britain" which is not really much of a competitive advantage. Worse, by the time they have "caught up" the europeans will be better again, with more cash and into the next technology. Plus they will have representatives on those government comitteees preparing the new legislation, leading the way.

So what are other boat builders doing? They are looking at ways to add value/create a stonger USP, develop some sort of technological leadership, Net Zero is opening doors to new ideas. Some potential customers will be actively looking for better more environmentally ways to go boating. So fuel consumption, performance, noise, type of construction etc etc all have potential for differentiation and leadership in what is a pretty small market.

You say there is nothing like a big diesel engined planing boat at the moment. What about GreenLine - they build boats up to 58 feet. They and others offer hybrid boats. Then rather than going everywhere at 25knots people are looking at big solar catamarans that can run out on the oceans using electric drive alone for hours and hours. The French builders are putting loads of solar and batteries on boats so that at anchor they can run silent. No need for generators. The Scandinavians and Americans are looking at energy effciency using alternative drives and hydrofoils. Compare this to what HenryF suggested - slow down! use the throttels to make the fuel last etc etc. The businesses trying new ideas, looking for real commercial advantage will mostly propser and be ready for new legislation as it rolls out.

Seems to me the UK builders are at best market followers that are losing money. You don't need to be mystic meg to work out what is going to happen.

What you said (as you can see for yourself if you scroll up) was:


The UK boat industry is slowly killing itself. If you look around the world all sorts of new technologies and fundamentally more efficient boat ideas are popping up all over the place and selling in real numbers.

Not true, for all the reasons I've mentioned.

 

[ari]

Doom and gloom have been going on for years...even this forum 20 yeas ago was said to fail....still waiting.....I think most of us will be mystic meg (dead) and the doom and gloom will continue.

Exactly so, sadly.

 

[billskip]

For those with a more enlightened view it is opportunity.

Haha that's what was said a few years back...

 

[kashurst]

Haha that's what was said a few years back...

and look at what is happening! 80 million new cars get sold every year give or take. Last year 18 million of them were electric. This year it is anticipated that 24 million will be electric. That is spraying off all sorts of technology.

 

[kashurst]

First foiling luxury yacht for private individuals

Nice. But the range at cruising speed is just 50nm.
Now with a boat, you don't need to stop to pee and there are no recharging stations on the way from Barcelona to Ibiza.

The Navier boat does 75 nm at 20kns with a very smooth, very quiet ride and no rolling at cruising speeds.
How long will it be before there are 40 footer. two bedroom and a loo at a similar price to a diesel boat, fully electric hydrofoiling boats that can do 100 nm? And then 150nm? 10 years? 5 years? 2 years?........

Then there is very little servicing, no oil changes and filters, no fuel filters, no diesel bug to worry about, no winterising, etc etc.

There will always be big planing diesel powered boats for doing long trips. How many people who own boats actually go more that 75 miles a day? and how often do they do that? So we could easily end up with fully electric boats for coastal and intra island stuff. That Navier boat could easily do the trip from Denia to Ibiza, Charge up on a 32 Amp shore power socket overnight, Off again to Majorca etc. The fuel costs alone would persuade many, sod the environment look at my wallet!

We already have plug in hybrid boats that can potter about for 10 to 20 miles. No emissions in harbours or out at anchor. Hmmmmm, I wonder how much tax you can charge a Mobo anchored overnight running a gennie? How much tax can you charge for taking a "polluting" boat into an expensive and desirable location like Portofino or the Croatian Islands??? easy money.

 

[westernman]

The Navier boat does 75 nm at 20kns with a very smooth, very quiet ride and no rolling at cruising speeds.
How long will it be before there are 40 footer. two bedroom and a loo at a similar price to a diesel boat, fully electric hydrofoiling boats that can do 100 nm? And then 150nm? 10 years? 5 years? 2 years?........

Then there is very little servicing, no oil changes and filters, no fuel filters, no diesel bug to worry about, no winterising, etc etc.

There will always be big planing diesel powered boats for doing long trips. How many people who own boats actually go more that 75 miles a day? and how often do they do that? So we could easily end up with fully electric boats for coastal and intra island stuff. That Navier boat could easily do the trip from Denia to Ibiza, Charge up on a 32 Amp shore power socket overnight, Off again to Majorca etc.

We already have plug in hybrid boats that can potter about for 10 to 20 miles. No emissions in harbours or out at anchor. Hmmmmm, I wonder how much tax you can charge a Mobo anchored overnight running a gennie? How much tax can you charge for taking a "polluting" boat into an expensive and desirable location like Portofino or the Croatian Islands??? easy money.

It is a bit tight. I make it 75nm to Ibiza town from Denia. And what if the wind blows the wrong way?

And in any case I want to go to Minorca not Ibiza.

Like with cars, all the other aspects are very nice. No noise, no dirty diesel, little servicing etc.

But it does not fit with my cruising where I will typically spend more than a week sailing/anchoring without visiting a harbour.
But a 12KW generator to recharge the batteries would be enough. But then noise, diesel, servicing, etc.

 

[kashurst]

It is a bit tight. I make it 75nm to Ibiza town from Denia. And what if the wind blows the wrong way?

And in any case I want to go to Minorca not Ibiza.

Like with cars, all the other aspects are very nice. No noise, no dirty diesel, little servicing etc.

But it does not fit with my cruising where I will typically spend more than a week sailing/anchoring without visiting a harbour.
But a 12KW generator to recharge the batteries would be enough. But then noise, diesel, servicing, etc.

In my experience the wind is always blowing the wrong way around those parts ;-)

But you are sorted! You just got yourself a hybrid. Most of the time charging from shore power will work just fine. If you are going off piste for a week or two, brilliant use a diesel genny. Cheap to build and operate. It would be possible to put exhaust emissions devices on it too. You could make it quiet and it would be more energy efficient overall.

 

[westernman]

In my experience the wind is always blowing the wrong way around those parts ;-)

But you are sorted! You just got yourself a hybrid. Most of the time charging from shore power will work just fine. If you are going off piste for a week or two, brilliant use a diesel genny. Cheap to build and operate. It would be possible to put exhaust emissions devices on it too. You could make it quiet and it would be more energy efficient overall.

Yes - I think this will be the way to go in the future.

Serial hybrid (i.e. a biggish generator - 50HP or more to fill up the batteries when at anchor) and a big enough battery for 75nm at a decent cruising speed with enough left over for the air-conditioning, the freezer, the cooker and the hot showers.

The problem is going to be the batteries - probably 500KWh or more will be needed for 75nm for a 45ft Swift Trawler sized foiler.
That is going to be 75K euros or more for the battery. It had better last better than my lead acid leisure batteries!
500KWh battery is likely to weight about 2.5Tonnes.

All feasible and the price for the battery is not too shocking compared to the cost a two Volvo Penta 350HP engines.

Benetau, when will it be available?

 

[flaming]

Yes - I think this will be the way to go in the future.

Serial hybrid (i.e. a biggish generator - 50HP or more to fill up the batteries when at anchor) and a big enough battery for 75nm at a decent cruising speed with enough left over for the air-conditioning, the freezer, the cooker and the hot showers.

The problem is going to be the batteries - probably 500KWh or more will be needed for 75nm for a 45ft Swift Trawler sized foiler.
That is going to be 75K euros or more for the battery. It had better last better than my lead acid leisure batteries!
500KWh battery is likely to weight about 2.5Tonnes.

All feasible and the price for the battery is not too shocking compared to the cost a two Volvo Penta 350HP engines.

Benetau, when will it be available?

I think that by the time people are realistically trying to do that the battery weight per KWh will have fallen further.

 

[westernman]

I think that by the time people are realistically trying to do that the battery weight per KWh will have fallen further.

I would hope so.

But even 2.5T is just about manageable for something like a Swift Trawler 44 sized boat which is just over 10T.

 

[flaming]

I would hope so.

But even 2.5T is just about manageable for something like a Swift Trawler 44 sized boat which is just over 10T.

Don't forget that the battery tech for cars is being driven to a large extent by the desire to get a big battery in a small space. It's possible that other solutions will give more storage per weight, but be a lot bulkier. This would be far less of an issue in a boat.

 

[dunedin]

First foiling luxury yacht for private individuals

Nice. But the range at cruising speed is just 50nm.
Now with a boat, you don't need to stop to pee and there are no recharging stations on the way from Barcelona to Ibiza.

But a huge amount of power boating is local, not going more than a few miles.

And for going from Barcelona to Ibiza, travelling at just below hull speed would use much less fuel - just need a bit more patience. Or add sails for longer distances, that might be an innovation

 

[Seven Spades]

It seems to me the paper was written by someone who has never been on a small boat and has no idea of how they work. It is almost impossible to make an all electric cruising boat. Jimmy Cornell tried and failed, the Wynns failed and the list goes on. You can’t generate sufficient electricity at sea to exist. Day sailing is possible but it will become hazardous as we hear RNLI call outs for people being washed up with flat betteries.

 

[henryf]

I have absolutely no idea where some of the posts on here are going.

Suggesting UK boat builders are losing money versus Italian builders has nothing to do with hybrid / electrical boats but everything to do with the assembly process.

The fact is if you’re happy to travel at slow hull speed then the current engines are incredibly efficient and you can reduce your carbon footprint tenfold whilst still retaining a fully recyclable power train. There’s loads of baked bean cans in a Volvo Penta lump. You also get massive range reducing the pressure on infrastructure in potentially sensitive areas.

Will we ever see our road haulage fleet go electric? Not sure but I can certainly see non dinosaur based fuels being used. If they’re good for lorries they’re good for boats.

Electric technology has been forced on sectors of the industry by politicians rather than through manufacturer development. It may yet leave a horrible legacy for future generations.

I would suggest air transport is a much bigger problem than leisure boats.

 

[flaming]

I would suggest air transport is a much bigger problem than leisure boats.

Yes of course, and of course the aviation industry are actively engaged with looking for solutions. They know that in order to have a future they need to adapt.

But the point you're missing is politics, and optics. Boating already suffers from an image problem of "rich man's toys". Do you really have an argument that you'd make to someone's face that even though they've had to give up their 1.0l fiesta, or their foreign holidays, you should continue to be allowed to buy a new huge planing motorboat that uses more fuel in an afternoon than they'd use in a year?

 

[kashurst]

I have absolutely no idea where some of the posts on here are going.

Suggesting UK boat builders are losing money versus Italian builders has nothing to do with hybrid / electrical boats but everything to do with the assembly process.

The fact is if you’re happy to travel at slow hull speed then the current engines are incredibly efficient and you can reduce your carbon footprint tenfold whilst still retaining a fully recyclable power train. There’s loads of baked bean cans in a Volvo Penta lump. You also get massive range reducing the pressure on infrastructure in potentially sensitive areas.

Will we ever see our road haulage fleet go electric? Not sure but I can certainly see non dinosaur based fuels being used. If they’re good for lorries they’re good for boats.

Electric technology has been forced on sectors of the industry by politicians rather than through manufacturer development. It may yet leave a horrible legacy for future generations.

I would suggest air transport is a much bigger problem than leisure boats.

UK boat builder profitability is currently about process and technology V their european competitors. Once a business has fallen behind the leaders it is often extremely difficult to catch up by just trying to do what the leaders did. The problem is by the time the laggard has acheived what is currently possible, the leaders are even further ahead and richer. The new technological/manufacturing/design playing field is further out of reach, the investment in machines and process even more expensive.

People often think that all they have to do is buy a new CAD system and a few five axis robots and all their troubles are sorted. No. You have to redesign the products the factory, the staff etc etc to get the very best out of it. Which takes time and experience - which you cannot easily buy across a whole business. If you don't do that investment in time and knowledge, the new shiny 5 axis machine and computer will end up as someones techy special project where they do robotic things in a forgotten corner. In effect an expensive white elephant. I have seen and experienced this in a few companies. The MD thinks he/she has ticked a few boxes, spent some money, therefore productivity job done.

So you can try and play catch up and probably fail or you can try and do something different. Net Zero and all that comes out of that creates a window of opportunity to be different, to have a new USP to try and get some technological leadership with a decent profit margin designed in etc etc. Net Zero is changing product legislation so being proactively part of that change process gives your business the heads up on what is likely to happen. If you are clever the new legislation reflects your business agenda not someone elses.

P.S. yes big trucks are being electrified and are being used on specific repeat routes. The UK now has a few seriously big truck chargers near Immingham and in Kent close to ferry terminals so operators can figure out how to best use these machines. Scandinavia, a big boaty part of the world, already has a fair few big electric trucks and charging devices in service already.

 

[henryf]

Yes of course, and of course the aviation industry are actively engaged with looking for solutions. They know that in order to have a future they need to adapt.

But the point you're missing is politics, and optics. Boating already suffers from an image problem of "rich man's toys". Do you really have an argument that you'd make to someone's face that even though they've had to give up their 1.0l fiesta, or their foreign holidays, you should continue to be allowed to buy a new huge planing motorboat that uses more fuel in an afternoon than they'd use in a year?

With 12 guests on board I could make a pretty strong argument for our boat yes. We already offer options for corporations wanting to respect their carbon commitments. As mentioned earlier the gyro is a big help.

We also use an itinerary which makes the most of slow speed time on board. But should the need arise or in an emergency we can do 30 knots.

Having lots of space to relax means we don’t need to thrill seek. We can potentially operate at around 10 litres of fuel per person per day. 4 hours at 20 litres per hour to give 7 knots. 2 hours at 10 ltrs per hour to give 6 knots. 8 hours at 3.5 ltrs for the generator.

By contrast I believe a long haul flight uses 300 plus ltrs per person each way.

A planing speed charter would probably use a bit over 40 ltrs per person

Fuel price in the UK means many people now use their boats at displacement speed.

Henry