Net zero hits boating !

[Boathook]

In 40 - 50 yrs oil and gas will not be harder to extract ...

The tech to drill / extract oil / gas evolves constantly ... even today - the % recovery of a well is still low figures. But that figure slowly edges up as tech evolves.

I remember years ago they wanted to put an oil rig in Poole Bay to extract oil. The environmentalists against it, etc. I like the idea of being able to sail round an oil rig !

It all went quiet over the proposal, as directional drilling had been developed and they were drilling from the original site, namely I believe Wych Farm in Poole harbour.
They are still extracting oil and I suspect that it will carry on for many years.

 

[Lucky Duck]

Be just like cars -think you are being green when looking at New cars and choosing electric then realise for 6 years you will get hit with high road tax on most average hybrid cars I have seen . I gather for those with company cars the position has worsen recently -I guess the idea of taxing pleasure boats diesel engines isn’t that unlikely really by 20 years or so -not being political here just seeing the future I guess .

My employer has recently reintroduced the company car scheme.

Something like an electric Audi Q4 costs about £10 a month in tax, that increases year on year but still nothing like I was paying 20 years ago for a base model Vauxhall Astra.

 

[henryf]

Given the low usage of most recreational boats the actual fuel saving versus carbon cost of electrifying a boat over 20 years (and 2 sets of propulsion batteries) simply doesn't add up.

The other thing to consider is the hidden feature built into all the UK built fast planing large recreational boats which cuts emissions by nearly 10 fold. When activated your fuel burn per nautical mile virtually stops dead in it’s tracks and there is no need for any additional infrastructure, additives or consumables. It works for the life of the boat.

This feature is called THROTTLE, which is short for, err…. the throttle. Ease back on these bad boys and potter along at your hull speed - which is often the maximum effective speed of large extended cruising electric boats and the fuel burn / emission figures shoot into the green. In our case we added gyro stabilisation to make slow displacement cruising comfortable. Should you need it high speed cruising is still available so its a win /win.

Were fuel ever to be taxed punitively you could engage THROTTLE and still continue to enjoy your boat with a full tank(s) of fuel lasting into the thousands of nautical miles.

 

[Momac]

Don't panic. All this malarkey is just a discussion paper and not any imminent legislation.
Decarbonising smaller vessels

 

[ari]

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As yet nothing biggger than 45', but give it time. Hydrofoiling and/or electric boats will start to replace planing boats. It wouldn't be hard to convert that 12m hydrofoiling electric ferry into a cruiser.

Exactly. Doesn't exist. Not one of those is a credible alternative to a Princess or Sunseeker.

The UK boat industry is slowly killing itself.

No it isn't. There isn't yet a credible 'greener' alternative in its market sector.


If you look around the world all sorts of new technologies and fundamentally more efficient boat ideas are popping up all over the place and selling in real numbers.

Again, nope. Have a look around any UK or European marina and count on your fingers the number of boats bought and in use by the manufacturers you've linked to. You'll only need the one hand, and in most places not even that.

Currently the 'green' technology doesn't exist to power the type of boats Princess, Sunseeker etc sell. To adopt it anyway just to try and look good rather than building what works and what people actually want, that would be 'killing itself'.

 

[kashurst]

Exactly. Doesn't exist. Not one of those is a credible alternative to a Princess or Sunseeker.

The UK boat industry is slowly killing itself.

No it isn't. There isn't yet a credible 'greener' alternative in its market sector.


If you look around the world all sorts of new technologies and fundamentally more efficient boat ideas are popping up all over the place and selling in real numbers.

Again, nope. Have a look around any UK or European marina and count on your fingers the number of boats bought and in use by the manufacturers you've linked to. You'll only need the one hand, and in most places not even that.

Currently the 'green' technology doesn't exist to power the type of boats Princess, Sunseeker etc sell. To adopt it anyway just to try and look good rather than building what works and what people actually want, that would be 'killing itself'.

Read the financial accounts of Princess and Sunseeker, then compare them or the Italian and French boat builders.

If they keep doing same old same old they will go the same way as Fairline.
They need to do something pretty radical one way or the other. Could be massive productivity shifts, could be technology revolution or something else.
There isn't a direct technological swap for say a 65' planing cruiser...........yet. There is already strong competition with better productivity.

edit: Marinas are full of boats that were sold in most cases a long time ago. Princess et al only sell NEW boats. How many brand new boats arrive in your typical marina every year?
Any new technology in boating will take along time to become obvious in most marinas because boats have a long life.

 

[Seastoke]

Well Fairline went green with Arrowbolt , that lasted well a few weeks.

 

[ari]

Read the financial accounts of Princess and Sunseeker, then compare them or the Italian and French boat builders.

If they keep doing same old same old they will go the same way as Fairline.
They need to do something pretty radical one way or the other. Could be massive productivity shifts, could be technology revolution or something else.
There isn't a direct technological swap for say a 65' planing cruiser...........yet. There is already strong competition with better productivity.

edit: Marinas are full of boats that were sold in most cases a long time ago. Princess et al only sell NEW boats. How many brand new boats arrive in your typical marina every year?
Any new technology in boating will take along time to become obvious in most marinas because boats have a long life.

You've moved on to a completely different subject now - financial results. If you could argue that the companies that are doing better are doing so because they are using vastly different 'green' technology then you might have a point, but they aren't. So whatever advantages they do have lie elsewhere.

As to boats sold a long time ago, no problem, count only the Princesses, Sunseekers, etc that were sold in the last 12 months. Then compare those numbers with sold boats in the last 12 months from the manufacturers you've linked to, the result will be exactly the same.

And that is still ignoring the fact that none of your 'green' manufacturers are building boats in any way comparable with those that Princess, Sunseeker etc are selling.

 

[Refueler]

I remember years ago they wanted to put an oil rig in Poole Bay to extract oil. The environmentalists against it, etc. I like the idea of being able to sail round an oil rig !

It all went quiet over the proposal, as directional drilling had been developed and they were drilling from the original site, namely I believe Wych Farm in Poole harbour.
They are still extracting oil and I suspect that it will carry on for many years.

In North Sea - directional is rife ....

 

[Momac]

In North Sea - directional is rife ....

Which is not visible to anyone, nor is there any visible pollution.
So the rest of UK should allow its fair share if it is beneficial to do so.

 

[oldgit]

Debate initially concerned boaters on the Thames and the livaboards on the local canals with the ULEZ in mind.

Do believe there is also taking place shortly a meeting of the worlds major shipping lines to come to some sort of agreement regards using a somewhat less polluting fuel than is currently used.
Not sure if the POTAS will be there .

 

[LittleSister]

There seem to be a small but significant number of electric hire boats on the Broads these days. Seemingly popular with hirers (and hence hireboat companies and builders). I've heard people mentioning they like the idea of being 'greener' (a lot of Broads residents and visitors like its wildlife and tranquility), and they are much quieter, especially for the user, than a diesel or outboard).

Of course, that's a particular usage not representative of boating more widely, but I imagine that we will increasingly see, with or without government intervention, electric propulsion in a range of boating activities where current technologies can provide relevant solutions, .

Governments may choose to encourage or discourage particular things or changes. It's what governments are for!

 

[ari]

Electric power is ideal for riverboats, arguably even better than ICE. Low power usage, no range anxiety (as not ever going to find yourself miles from shore in unexpected bad weather), no weight penalty (as not lifting onto the plane) so add as many batteries as will fit, quiet peaceful running, no emissions (at point of use), can be recharged overnight pretty much anywhere with shore power. Perfect!

Likewise tenders: short range, can be charged from the mothership, no petrol to worry about, no servicing costs, easy to start, reliable, quiet.

Absolutely hopeless for large planing offshore cruisers though.

 

[Momac]

Electric power is ideal for riverboats, arguably even better than ICE. Low power usage, no range anxiety (as not ever going to find yourself miles from shore in unexpected bad weather), no weight penalty (as not lifting onto the plane) so add as many batteries as will fit, quiet peaceful running, no emissions (at point of use), can be recharged overnight pretty much anywhere with shore power. Perfect!

The absence of facilities to charge being a bit of an issue
Existing electric narrowboats have solar panels and a diesel generator . The solar is ineffective half the year in the UK and in any case isn't enough in the summer except if the boat does very short journeys.

 

[Poignard]

There is, or used to be, an electric ferry operating in La Rochelle. It ran between the outer marina (near a popular bathing beach) and the town. It had solar panels on the roof and, between trips, the coxswain plugged a charging cable into a socket on the pontoon.

 

[Sailing steve]

I would wote for zero "green dumb people" ... with all this net zero thing they have no understanding how the wolrdwide energy flow is organized.

But unlike some blinkered individuals these "green dumb people" do have a crystal clear understanding of the scientific facts regarding the environmental damage the worldwide energy flow is causing to the planet.

Any action taken to increase awareness of that damage or any action taken to ameliorate it is well worth voting for.

 

[littledancersadhu]

Fascinating to watch the world s madnesss

 

[kashurst]

You've moved on to a completely different subject now - financial results. If you could argue that the companies that are doing better are doing so because they are using vastly different 'green' technology then you might have a point, but they aren't. So whatever advantages they do have lie elsewhere.

As to boats sold a long time ago, no problem, count only the Princesses, Sunseekers, etc that were sold in the last 12 months. Then compare those numbers with sold boats in the last 12 months from the manufacturers you've linked to, the result will be exactly the same.

And that is still ignoring the fact that none of your 'green' manufacturers are building boats in any way comparable with those that Princess, Sunseeker etc are selling.

Interesting you think I am on a different subject. I said the UK manufacturers are slowly killing themselves. To see that look at the financial numbers. If you do that you can see that they do not make any money. Princess are in a terrible state and Sunseeker this year made a net profit of I think £3 million on a turnover of £340 million give or take. That is not long term viable. If it was not in some way a glamourous business these companies would have been abandoned years ago.

Net zero, what ever people think is not going away. The demands of it will only grow over the years as these government studies/reports allude to. Businesses can use legislation to create long term advantage. If they are paying attention they can help shape that legislation to their advantage. And they will, they will also lay technological booby traps to block competitors. The UK builders productivity issues are definitely not going away so the remaining builders need to do somethng very different. Just rearranging the furniture on ever bigger boat design that still doesn't make any money is not a winning business plan. It's no plan at all regardless of if they make 30 boats or 300 boats. Volume is not profit. If you aren't making real profit you aren't creating a good cash flow.

For the UK builders to prosper they must change dramatically. Productivity improvements are a must have, They have to catch up with the Italians and French etc just to stay alive. But is that enough? I don't think so because then all they will have as a USP is that they are "made in Britain" which is not really much of a competitive advantage. Worse, by the time they have "caught up" the europeans will be better again, with more cash and into the next technology. Plus they will have representatives on those government comitteees preparing the new legislation, leading the way.

So what are other boat builders doing? They are looking at ways to add value/create a stonger USP, develop some sort of technological leadership, Net Zero is opening doors to new ideas. Some potential customers will be actively looking for better more environmentally ways to go boating. So fuel consumption, performance, noise, type of construction etc etc all have potential for differentiation and leadership in what is a pretty small market.

You say there is nothing like a big diesel engined planing boat at the moment. What about GreenLine - they build boats up to 58 feet. They and others offer hybrid boats. Then rather than going everywhere at 25knots people are looking at big solar catamarans that can run out on the oceans using electric drive alone for hours and hours. The French builders are putting loads of solar and batteries on boats so that at anchor they can run silent. No need for generators. The Scandinavians and Americans are looking at energy effciency using alternative drives and hydrofoils. Compare this to what HenryF suggested - slow down! use the throttels to make the fuel last etc etc. The businesses trying new ideas, looking for real commercial advantage will mostly propser and be ready for new legislation as it rolls out.

Seems to me the UK builders are at best market followers that are losing money. You don't need to be mystic meg to work out what is going to happen.

 

[flaming]

I've long said that there is a lot of "head in sand" among boat owners and boat builders as to how the decarbonisation of our economy is going to impact their hobby and business.

It just isn't feasible that once new sales of ICE cars are ended, powerboats used entirely for leisure purposes will just continue as is. Leaving aside any claims that boats are a tiny % of emissions, simply the optics of banning a 1.0l fiesta but allowing a 60 foot planing MOBO really will not wash.

In this regard I think the industry are seriously misguided to adopt a "go away, can't be done" approach. A more measured interaction with suggestions and an acceptance of an end goal, probably in the mid to late 2040s of no new ICE powered leisure craft, would result in the time for both the public and the industry to get their heads around what the future of boating after ICE looks like.

Simply claiming that "it can't be done, and large businesses will go if we have to do it", doesn't really stack up when in reality the fact that this is the direction of travel has been known for a very long time. But work with government and agree a timeline, one long enough to allow for a lot of R&D, and customer attitude changes, and there's at least a plan as to how to carry on.

Don't do that and the backlash from the increasing numbers of "green dumb people" who are getting themselves elected to councils etc will start to bite. ULEZ in picturesque harbours, fines for any spills etc. If you think that won't happen you're naive in the extreme.

And that's before you start wondering where the fuel will actually come from once the volume of road fuel being sold drops below levels that sustain the sort of supply and distribution model that we have now. We mustn't lose sight of the fact that the supply of leisure marine fuel piggbacks on the supply of road fuel. Take one away, and the other either becomes extremely expensive, or very hard to get. Or both. And everything else that you need - tankers to transport the fuel, companies to produce the pumps, the tanks, the calibrated meters, the hoses etc. The specialist companies that do tank cleaning etc. Do we really think they will survive on just leisure marine volumes?

If you're in your 60s now. Don't sweat it. It's not going to affect you. Those of us who hope to still be boating after the point where sales of road fuel collapse to tiny percentages of current volumes, ought to be worried about what that means to our fuel supply.

 

[billskip]

You don't need to be mystic meg to work out what is going to happen.

Doom and gloom have been going on for years...even this forum 20 yeas ago was said to fail....still waiting.....I think most of us will be mystic meg (dead) and the doom and gloom will continue.