Net zero hits boating !

[flaming]

Obviously the Leaf is real world actual. The new technology is theoretical because we haven’t reached 12 years yet. Am I confident to invest £2 million in an electric boat? No.

Re: rising EV prices - try telling that to Porsche Taycan (and similar) owners

£120k down to £40k in the blink of a tearful eye. Real world.

The Leaf is real world of a battery type that is no longer used. It's simply not relevant.

Absolutely you shouldn't sink money into an electric boat yet. EV tech is pretty good now, Electric boat tech is just starting. Right now electric boats are niche early adopter types. Give it time...

Taycan is reported as depreciating 37% in 3 years, which is basically the same as an ICE fast saloon isn't it? Very few Taycans were actually the £120k versions... If you go on Autotrader sort by power, and you'll see the ones with the largest power outputs (which were the expensive ones) are still over £70k for a 2021 car. for example.

Auto Trader UK - New and Used Cars For Sale

Electric Car Depreciation - The Ultimate Guide (2025 Update) | Motorway.

 

[ari]

Yes… but the point is that the car is being phased out. After that point the boat becomes rather more exposed to the optics of conspicuous consumption…

It doesn’t help that it’s entirely a leisure item…

I'm assuming you mean the petrol or diesel car, rather than simply 'the car' (although maybe you don't, that does seem to be the aim for some).

Well, lets wait and see whether that ever actually happens shall we? Phasing out of new ICE vehicle sales has already been shunted back from 2030 to 2035 as it slowly downs on the wishful thinking politicians that we haven't a hope in hell of creating an infrastructure that will support such a move in five years.

Any bets on how much difference another five years will make?

 

[ari]

How would you see the life expectancy of batteries being integrated within the overall environment impact of your plan?

Sssshh. We're not supposed to notice the environmental cost of mining, creating, transporting and ultimately disposing of all these millions and millions of batteries! Or consider how the electricity is produced. We're supposed to just point at a Nissan Leaf and marvel at how 'emission free' it is.

A bit like wind farms - marvellous how they produce electricity with zero environmental impact (as long as the wind is blowing - but not too strongly, and provided we ignore the cost of producing, installing, dismantling and disposing of them!)

As has been said repeatedly (and accurately), forget the facts, it's all about the optics.

 

[flaming]

I'm assuming you mean the petrol or diesel car, rather than simply 'the car' (although maybe you don't, that does seem to be the aim for some).

Well, lets wait and see whether that ever actually happens shall we? Phasing out of new ICE vehicle sales has already been shunted back from 2030 to 2035 as it slowly downs on the wishful thinking politicians that we haven't a hope in hell of creating an infrastructure that will support such a move in five years.

Any bets on how much difference another five years will make?

Yes in context it was clear I was talking about ICE powered.

To me it's telling that those who say it cannot be done are not those out there living with an EV now. If I had one message for people who are skeptical about EV it would be this.

I've been driving EV for 4 years, and went all EV 2 years ago. I'm not a masochist, or an eco warrior, I wouldn't have done that if it was a hideous experience. It's not, it's fine. Better than fine. I still get around, my day to day life is more convenient, long trips are barely any less convenient. You have no need to make the switch before you are comfortable with it, but be reassured that when you do you'll still have a comfortable car capable of taking you anywhere you want to go.

 

[Refueler]

Porsche AG’s decision to limit production of vehicles which represent the brand’s core values such as the GT3, GT4 and so on provided a rich breeding ground for dealers to exploit underhand methods. It’s not something I agree with or can see the benefit of. In many cases the hyped up premiums have now evaporated leaving owners out of pocket hundreds of thousands of pounds.

Thankfully in the boating world you hand over your deposit and get in line. The only question is how long the wait is but your business is welcomed.

Porsche tried outlawing the practice of 'outside dealers' buying into the scheme.

Personally I could not see the point of it all .... I understand that originally it was to improve flagging sales of the low end models - but it then evolved into a mess where the low end models were not even leaving the showroom floor - bought and sold to get onto the GT list. So dealers still had them on their hands.

 

[henryf]

Porsche tried outlawing the practice of 'outside dealers' buying into the scheme.

Personally I could not see the point of it all .... I understand that originally it was to improve flagging sales of the low end models - but it then evolved into a mess where the low end models were not even leaving the showroom floor - bought and sold to get onto the GT list. So dealers still had them on their hands.

It wasn’t outside dealers buying the GT cars it was private owners performing what ever acts the main dealer required of them in order to secure a build slot.

 

[ari]

Yes in context it was clear I was talking about ICE powered.

To me it's telling that those who say it cannot be done are not those out there living with an EV now. If I had one message for people who are skeptical about EV it would be this.

I've been driving EV for 4 years, and went all EV 2 years ago. I'm not a masochist, or an eco warrior, I wouldn't have done that if it was a hideous experience. It's not, it's fine. Better than fine. I still get around, my day to day life is more convenient, long trips are barely any less convenient. You have no need to make the switch before you are comfortable with it, but be reassured that when you do you'll still have a comfortable car capable of taking you anywhere you want to go.

I'm sure they're brilliant if you don't have to go too far and you have the ability to charge them at home. I'd consider one as a second car for sure (if there wasn't a premium for owning one and I felt confident that I could ever sell it again).

But that isn't everyone, and they only work currently because not everyone has one.

Go and stand on a motorway bridge over the M25 and ponder the logistics of every single car passing under you being electric only...

 

[westernman]

The battery issue just needs to be resolved by manufacturers offering a warranty for repair/replacement for a long period of time - both for new and second hand vehicles.

If the batteries are as good as they say, then the warranty can be offered for a relatively low price. If it can't be offered at a reasonable price, then the battery technology needs to be fixed.

There is an element in luck for an individual battery pack. Hence, the warranty should fix that for the consumer by spreading out the risk like in any insurance premium.

 

[westernman]

Worldwide I’m not sure we will ever see the electrical takeover of cars / light goods vehicles.

I think we will. Already here in the SOF, most of the deliveries to my company and home are by electric vehicles.
Iveco and BYD have electric trucks of all sizes. They seem eminently practical for developed countries (EU, SE Asia, etc)*.

* Note: I did not include UK, USA, Australia.
In Australia, trucks replace rail for many long distance routes. UK and USA no longer count as developed.

Here is a video of real world experience of a full sized electric juggernaut:-

 

[flaming]

I'm sure they're brilliant if you don't have to go too far and you have the ability to charge them at home. I'd consider one as a second car for sure (if there wasn't a premium for owning one and I felt confident that I could ever sell it again).

But that isn't everyone, and they only work currently because not everyone has one.

Go and stand on a motorway bridge over the M25 and ponder the logistics of every single car passing under you being electric only...

In the last 12 months I've driven EVs from Suffolk to the west coast of France, to the alps (3 times) to Cornwall, Hull etc etc.... Mostly in my 200 mile range Buzz. During the sailing season I drive from Suffolk to Hamble and back roughly every other weekend.

The idea that they are only any good if you "don't go very far" is nonsense put out by people who aren't living with them. Those of use who do have them just get on with it.

If you'd followed the extremely long EV thread over in the lounge, you'd know that the logistics of making every car EV have indeed been considered by me, and others, and the conclusion is simply that it's possible. If you make every car in the UK EV right now, the annual power demand in the UK, with all of that extra load, would still be less than the all time peak. But we're not doing it all at once, there's going to be a lengthy changeover phase. And during this phase, even though we are increasing the numbers of EVs quite substantially every year, every year the grid gets greener. And the annual demand is still dropping. in 2023, the last year for which data is currently available, total UK power demand fell 3% compared to 2022. Despite all those EVs being added.

For absolute sure there are logistical issues around getting power to everywhere it's needed. And frankly there will need to be government intervention in the area of on street charging for homes without off street parking. But claiming it cannot be done does not stack up, as it IS being done. There are already plenty of solutions ofr on street charging, from lampost chargers, to pop up chargers, to things that look a bit like old fashioned parking meters... None of that is especially complicated, it just requires money and time, together with the will to do it.

 

[kashurst]

The battery issue just needs to be resolved by manufacturers offering a warranty for repair/replacement for a long period of time - both for new and second hand vehicles.

If the batteries are as good as they say, then the warranty can be offered for a relatively low price. If it can't be offered at a reasonable price, then the battery technology needs to be fixed.

There is an element in luck for an individual battery pack. Hence, the warranty should fix that for the consumer by spreading out the risk like in any insurance premium.

ever bought a Land Rover product?????
There is a lot of fear about EVs batteries. If the fear is true where are all these cars with knackered batteries after a very short life.
Bear in mind there are around 40 million EVs running about the world now. The battery packs have an 8 year warranty. How long do Porsche or Jag give a warranty for? Surely it must be at least 20 years by now.

 

[kashurst]

I'm sure they're brilliant if you don't have to go too far and you have the ability to charge them at home. I'd consider one as a second car for sure (if there wasn't a premium for owning one and I felt confident that I could ever sell it again).

But that isn't everyone, and they only work currently because not everyone has one.

Go and stand on a motorway bridge over the M25 and ponder the logistics of every single car passing under you being electric only...

The more people get them the better it all works. Unless people can't charge at home (for now anyway) Most people can charge at home.
Charging at a rapid charger is unusual. Charging at home normal. The more people that get one the more likely it is the friends and relatives you may visit have an EV and a home charger.
Just imagine having a petrol pump ouside you front door. If you had one but only had a 250 mile tank how often would you need to go to Tescos for fuel?

I'm on my 4th EV and have been all over the UK in the past 8 years. I don't give charging much thought anymore, it's easy.

 

[henryf]

ever bought a Land Rover product?????
There is a lot of fear about EVs batteries. If the fear is true where are all these cars with knackered batteries after a very short life.
Bear in mind there are around 40 million EVs running about the world now. The battery packs have an 8 year warranty. How long do Porsche or Jag give a warranty for? Surely it must be at least 20 years by now.

ever bought a Land Rover product?????
There is a lot of fear about EVs batteries. If the fear is true where are all these cars with knackered batteries after a very short life.
Bear in mind there are around 40 million EVs running about the world now. The battery packs have an 8 year warranty. How long do Porsche or Jag give a warranty for? Surely it must be at least 20 years by now.

You can put a Porsche warranty on vehicles up to 14 years old and 125,000 miles with cover up to 15 years and unlimited mileage.

 

[kashurst]

You can put a Porsche warranty on vehicles up to 14 years old and 125,000 miles with cover up to 15 years and unlimited mileage.

Great, how much? What happens after 14 years?

 

[henryf]

I think we will. Already here in the SOF, most of the deliveries to my company and home are by electric vehicles.
Iveco and BYD have electric trucks of all sizes. They seem eminently practical for developed countries (EU, SE Asia, etc)*.

* Note: I did not include UK, USA, Australia.
In Australia, trucks replace rail for many long distance routes. UK and USA no longer count as developed.

Here is a video of real world experience of a full sized electric juggernaut:-

That was a really interesting video. I got range anxiety watching it and the guy is charging station guru. It obviously highlights the massive steps needed to see transition to electric become a reality. I still think the future is synthetic fuels but who knows. Germany is one of the world’s most highly developed countries. I’m using Thailand as my yardstick. When a technology works there and is adopted I’ll call it success.

 

[westernman]

That was a really interesting video. I got range anxiety watching it and the guy is charging station guru. It obviously highlights the massive steps needed to see transition to electric become a reality. I still think the future is synthetic fuels but who knows. Germany is one of the world’s most highly developed countries. I’m using Thailand as my yardstick. When a technology works there and is adopted I’ll call it success.

I was in Thailand a couple of weeks ago. In particular on Phuket Island there are a lot of EVs. The Toyota Corolla taxis have mostly been replaced by MG5. However, I never saw a charger. But as I was not driving of course I never needed to find one.
In Bangkok, the electric revolution seems to be a bit slower. But in any case there are a lot of Chinese EVs. BYD, MG and several other brands I have never seen in Europe.

 

[kashurst]

That was a really interesting video. I got range anxiety watching it and the guy is charging station guru. It obviously highlights the massive steps needed to see transition to electric become a reality. I still think the future is synthetic fuels but who knows. Germany is one of the world’s most highly developed countries. I’m using Thailand as my yardstick. When a technology works there and is adopted I’ll call it success.

As of December 2024, Thailand has 11,467 electric vehicle charging units, including 5,685 normal chargers (AC) and 5,782 fast chargers (DC).
In comparison the UK has 73,334 public electric vehicle charging devices, with 14,448 being 50kW+
I saw loads of EVs in Chiang Mai 18 months ago. EVs and electric scooters are selling well in south east asia. If you want to see zillions of EVs go to Seoul in Korea.

 

[billskip]

It was online and may have been reported via BBC World ... it was late last year if I remember ... the link I will no longer have - sorry.

 

[seeSimon]

Yes of course, and of course the aviation industry are actively engaged with looking for solutions. They know that in order to have a future they need to adapt.

But the point you're missing is politics, and optics. Boating already suffers from an image problem of "rich man's toys". Do you really have an argument that you'd make to someone's face that even though they've had to give up their 1.0l fiesta, or their foreign holidays, you should continue to be allowed to buy a new huge planing motorboat that uses more fuel in an afternoon than they'd use in a year?

UK.
I substantially agree, however the electric car brigade generally seem to have survived the "poor optics" issue? MOST EVs (cars) hereabouts are very large, heavy, expensive luxury vehicles...subsided by tax payers. By grant, as well as business BiK tax subsidies.
There doesn't seem to be appropriate push back from us "fiesta driving folk"?

very obviously a minority of Nissan leaf/Prius type "modest" hybrids/ EVs. Numbers of electric Chinese MGs increasing...not sure they'll last 6 yrs, never mind their residual values?

I saw a hybrid rangerover type thing, running in E mode while trailer launching a large rhib (with 2x 150hp outboards) at the end of last season...which really summarises what bollox this all is.
....imho...

 

[ari]

The idea that they are only any good if you "don't go very far" is nonsense put out by people who aren't living with them. Those of use who do have them just get on with it.

that is especially complicated, it just requires money and time, together with the will to do it.

Actually they're driven by examples like a friend of mine who got an electric Mercedes for no other reason than it was hugely tax efficient as a company car (was bribed by the government to buy it, in other words).

His wife used it to go for a girl's weekend city break. Car had enough juice to get there, but not back. No problem, the hotel has chargers, leave it on charge overnight, hey presto, full charge to come home with. No problem.

Got to the hotel, six chargers, all in use. Had to research charging points on the motorway on the way home (did you know that the cost of charging at motorway service station is roughly equivalent to a car that does 16mpg?). Found one, drove to that on way home, very little charge left at this point. All chargers out of order.

Had to then drive off the motorway, head about 20 miles away, finally found a working charger. Had to sit there for 1/2 hour while the thing gained enough charge then 20 miles back to the motorway and finally managed to drive home.

They're paying the BIK on a petrol company car now.