Net zero hits boating !

[flaming]

Actually they're driven by examples like a friend of mine who got an electric Mercedes for no other reason than it was hugely tax efficient as a company car (was bribed by the government to buy it, in other words).

His wife used it to go for a girl's weekend city break. Car had enough juice to get there, but not back. No problem, the hotel has chargers, leave it on charge overnight, hey presto, full charge to come home with. No problem.

Got to the hotel, six chargers, all in use. Had to research charging points on the motorway on the way home (did you know that the cost of charging at motorway service station is roughly equivalent to a car that does 16mpg?). Found one, drove to that on way home, very little charge left at this point. All chargers out of order.

Had to then drive off the motorway, head about 20 miles away, finally found a working charger. Had to sit there for 1/2 hour while the thing gained enough charge then 20 miles back to the motorway and finally managed to drive home.

They're paying the BIK on a petrol company car now.

I hear stuff like this from time to time, and I simply don't get it. Basically every EV out there, and definitely a mercedes will simply tell you where to stop to charge if you put your destination in the satnav. Why she's gone wandering around the country looking for 1 I have no idea. The car will just do all that for you.
There are also tonnes of apps that make it even better. I run one called ABRP (A better route planner) that not only knows if any given charger is out of order, but it also knows how many connections are taken and how many free as you drive towards it. And it can, and does, re-route you to one that is less busy. I'll be running that on Friday on my final drive to the alps of the season.

Honestly, if my 76 year old mother can cope with it in her Cupra Born on trips to Devon, it's really not rocket science.

And yes, the cost of motorway charging can be very high. But it's a comparatively rare event and my overall fuel costs are considerably lower.

 

[kashurst]

UK.
I substantially agree, however the electric car brigade generally seem to have survived the "poor optics" issue? MOST EVs (cars) hereabouts are very large, heavy, expensive luxury vehicles...subsided by tax payers. By grant, as well as business BiK tax subsidies.
There doesn't seem to be appropriate push back from us "fiesta driving folk"?

very obviously a minority of Nissan leaf/Prius type "modest" hybrids/ EVs. Numbers of electric Chinese MGs increasing...not sure they'll last 6 yrs, never mind their residual values?

I saw a hybrid rangerover type thing, running in E mode while trailer launching a large rhib (with 2x 150hp outboards) at the end of last season...which really summarises what bollox this all is.
....imho...

Electric cars and other electrified machines have been created as part of the path to reduce the effects of global warming.
No one is being forced into an electric car. People will almost certainly be able to buy petrol etc for decades to come if they wish.
There is nothing to "push back" against. People will be able to buy brand new ICE cars up to 2030 and brand new plug in hybrids up to 2035.

There are 40 million EVs running about all over the world now, getting cheaper by the day as market forces bring down prices.
In the UK there are now 1.4 million EVs being used to travel all over the country and abroad and have very little trouble charging them up again.
They vary in size from machines the size of a Fiesta which sell in big numbers round the £25K price new, right up to the leviathans you describe whch although very obvious sell in relatively small numbers because they are very expensive £100K level.

That hybrid range rover you saw launching a RIB of a trailer did exactly the right thing using electric power. Electric motors have massive torque at low speeds and are very easy to control in such connditions. If the owner of this hybrid uses it properly they will have all the advantages of an electric car over a limited distance suitable for commuting and no worries towing a boat or going a long way.

 

[TonyR123]

Luckily Mercedes has seen sense and ditched the hopeless 4 cylinder hybrid plug in and replaced with a v8.

 

[RunAgroundHard]

As a person who has been drilling for oil and gas for 35 years, I can definitely state that technology has not changed significantly, as we have been using rotary drilling techniques developed in the early 1900s. Sure methods of using rotary drilling have changed but the technique is relatively straight forward; rotate a drill bit to crush or mill rock and sweep the cuttings to surface with a flowing mud column. Enhanced Oil Recovery (EOR) methods used when natural pressure drive depletes or is insufficient have improved but recovery factors remain around 40%, we can just get more out of what were once shitty reservoirs. Gas is about 90%. EOR requires more energy which costs money and very soon the recovery costs eat into the profit margins and make fields uneconomical. Interestingly renewable energy will likely lower the costs of EOR. Are we at peak oil, the general consensus is it is near, but that has been said for most of this century. Also the general consensus is that there will be a glut of oil as energy sources change and that in turn may lower oil prices hitch make further exploration not economic. In my experience, exploration finds have been decreasing but still big finds happen. Deepwater USA, which is a recent play, has now entered the EOR phase with lots of infill drilling to keep the facilities flowing as they drop off peek production, and more EOR activities. This is where the North Sea was 30 years ago and all the big fields in the UK are gone now, with further development restricted through political policies.

If you believe that MMGW is damaging the planet, then releasing methane and CO2 has to come down, and governments in all the jurisdictions that matter are working on that, including China. Hence, it is no surprise that these policies will eventually impact leisure sailing auxiliary engines and the motor boat sector. I think hydrogen has not yet gone away and we may very well see a resurgence in that space. In Europe and California there are hydrogen trucks running local routes to prove concepts.

The thought that the diesel or petrol engine will remain as a drive of choice for vessels is rather restrictive thinking, as we all have experienced significant change over our lives. This will be no different and it is already happening, the tech is here now and being implemented.

 

[Greg2]

It seems to me that EV debates are much the same as which anchor discussions and as a casual observer personal choice appears to influence views as we inevitably validate what we have done.

I am open minded but far from convinced that EVs are the answer and I have one but it is via work (partly because it is tax efficient) and I can do most of what I want by charging at home with a range of circa 270 miles at worst. The odd foray I have made on longer journeys has not been good despite all the apps and is the stuff of comedic legend at work. I now opt for an ICE car if we have to go any distance but for local / regional stuff the EV is brilliant and a joy to drive. Would I part with my own cash to buy one? Absolutely not. Might I change my mind as time goes on and costs reduce whilst infrastructure improves? Possibly but the shift would need to be significant.

As for boats, which is what the thread is about, I doubt that electric will cut the mustard for some considerable time and my view has always been that a ‘mixed economy’ makes most sense with emissions being reduced/eradicated where they can be but retaining fossil fuels for some uses such as HGV, marine etc. Trouble is that doesn’t fit with convenient but meaningless political tag lines such as ‘Net Zero’
.

 

[jrudge]

My intention when posting this was a boat discussion. Clearly there are those here who like ev and those that dont. However this is a boating forum!

There are real world issues with ev - range / charging ( public chargers / home charging ) / depreciation / initial cost. These are well known. Some people accept them some don't. There is vast tax distortion making an ev as a company car driver a no brainer.

However boat are a very different use case and I am struggling to see where the real innovation and cost reduction will come from. The USA is in drill baby drill mode so it won't be from there.

The market is small. Boats use truck engines with big fuel tanks. Sorted. The average truck has what 2/3/4 hundred little fuel tanks. A 60 foot boat 2-3000 litres. So the energy delta we are taking about is vast. Boat move. That is their purpose. Finding a charging station at sea is not going to happen.

 

[Refueler]

As a person who has been drilling for oil and gas for 35 years, I can definitely state that technology has not changed significantly, as we have been using rotary drilling techniques developed in the early 1900s. Sure methods of using rotary drilling have changed but the technique is relatively straight forward; rotate a drill bit to crush or mill rock and sweep the cuttings to surface with a flowing mud column. Enhanced Oil Recovery (EOR) methods used when natural pressure drive depletes or is insufficient have improved but recovery factors remain around 40%, we can just get more out of what were once shitty reservoirs. Gas is about 90%. EOR requires more energy which costs money and very soon the recovery costs eat into the profit margins and make fields uneconomical. Interestingly renewable energy will likely lower the costs of EOR. Are we at peak oil, the general consensus is it is near, but that has been said for most of this century. Also the general consensus is that there will be a glut of oil as energy sources change and that in turn may lower oil prices hitch make further exploration not economic. In my experience, exploration finds have been decreasing but still big finds happen. Deepwater USA, which is a recent play, has now entered the EOR phase with lots of infill drilling to keep the facilities flowing as they drop off peek production, and more EOR activities. This is where the North Sea was 30 years ago and all the big fields in the UK are gone now, with further development restricted through political policies.

If you believe that MMGW is damaging the planet, then releasing methane and CO2 has to come down, and governments in all the jurisdictions that matter are working on that, including China. Hence, it is no surprise that these policies will eventually impact leisure sailing auxiliary engines and the motor boat sector. I think hydrogen has not yet gone away and we may very well see a resurgence in that space. In Europe and California there are hydrogen trucks running local routes to prove concepts.

The thought that the diesel or petrol engine will remain as a drive of choice for vessels is rather restrictive thinking, as we all have experienced significant change over our lives. This will be no different and it is already happening, the tech is here now and being implemented.

When I went into Seismic Work - I was told by Clients and guys working around me - that recovery then was about 14 - 18% depending on the strata and method of extraction.
Methods evolved and that recovery increased into the mid 20's % ... so your 40% is a vast improvement from what I know from the late 80's

 

[henryf]

At the risk of bringing it back to boats I noticed an article in this month’s Motorboat & Yachting talking about a Sanlorenzo / MAN project which uses methanol.

This seems as though it has legs. Lower speed displacement cruising using methanol could be a self contained way forward which doesn’t require the rest of the world to invest in expensive infrastructure.

 

[Refueler]

At the risk of bringing it back to boats I noticed an article in this month’s Motorboat & Yachting talking about a Sanlorenzo / MAN project which uses methanol.

This seems as though it has legs. Lower speed displacement cruising using methanol could be a self contained way forward which doesn’t require the rest of the world to invest in expensive infrastructure.

The Greenies will view all liquid fuel as bad ... regardless of what comes out of the exhaust pipe.

 

[westernman]

Electric cars and other electrified machines have been created as part of the path to reduce the effects of global warming.

Not only that. And I don't think that is even the main priority.

I think the main reason for electric cars is to clean up air quality in our city and town centers.
This has been done with spectacular effect in large cities such as Shenzhen.

 

[Cheery]

I read that article with interest and the volume of batteries needed was laughable. All this net zero chasing for what?

The Earth's atmosphere contains 0.04% CO2 of which man is responsible for 33% and of that figure the UK is responsible for 1%. This next figure is really interesting because if the UK ceased to exist at midnight the atmosphere would benefit by 0.00000132% less CO2 output. For that we are being taxed to death and forcing companies into bankruptcy.

 

[Laser310]

I think pretty much everyone here is missing the main issue.., which is not whether batteries and electric motors are, or will be, suitable for yachting.

The biggest issue will be the supply of electricity to power boats used for leisure.

Oil, gas and coal still provide about 75% or more of Britain's total energy needs.

That means that in order to meet the net zero commitment, so-called renewable energy production needs to triple.

It's not likely this can be accomplished in the mandated time frame, so either there will be shortages and rationing, or the net zero time will be extended.

Either way, it's hard to see that any government will permit scarce electricity to be used for yachting.

So, if oil and gas can't be used, and electricity can't be used..., then it looks like we will be back to using wind.., or galley slaves...

 

[Refueler]

I read that article with interest and the volume of batteries needed was laughable. All this net zero chasing for what?

The Earth's atmosphere contains 0.04% CO2 of which man is responsible for 33% and of that figure the UK is responsible for 1%. This next figure is really interesting because if the UK ceased to exist at midnight the atmosphere would benefit by 0.00000132% less CO2 output. For that we are being taxed to death and forcing companies into bankruptcy.

Forgive me for saying this - but little drops of water make the mighty oceans. Its not that UK is a small fraction of the problem - its the sum total of all those small fractions and the larger that make the issue. If all small fractions said - to hell with it - we are only a small part - then the overall effect is bad.

I think pretty much everyone here is missing the main issue.., which is not whether batteries and electric motors are, or will be, suitable for yachting.

The biggest issue will be the supply of electricity to power boats used for leisure.

Oil, gas and coal still provide about 75% or more of Britain's total energy needs.

That means that in order to meet the net zero commitment, so-called renewable energy production needs to triple.

It's not likely this can be accomplished in the mandated time frame, so either there will be shortages and rationing, or the net zero time will be extended.

Either way, it's hard to see that any government will permit scarce electricity to be used for yachting.

So, if oil and gas can't be used, and electricity can't be used..., then it looks like we will be back to using wind.., or galley slaves...

This is the same problem that BioFuel has ... how do you satisfy demand ?

My house / barn and workshop easily gobble up 400 - 500 euros of electricity per month ... I have invested in Solar to counter this ... helped a lot - BUT when sun goes down or its a shady period ... my electric bill can still be over 200 a month ... I do not charge any EV's ...
What would be my bill if I did ?
My accounts and I worked it out a while back - that in fact - in net terms I am better off with continuing diesel use with my Range Rover !

I appreciate that money should not stop the effort to solve the climate problem .. that all small savings all add up to the overall effect. But realistic values need to be accounted for.

It is not unusual for EV's to receive their energy produced by conventional powered grid ... the only advantage is hopefully the grid use of fuel is more efficient than us running around in our conventional vehicles.

I'm 69yrs old ... I do not realistically expect to see the EV take over before I go meet my maker ...

 

[kashurst]

The Greenies will view all liquid fuel as bad ... regardless of what comes out of the exhaust pipe.

I think the Greenies would be delighted to have a liquid fuel to replace diesel etc. I certainly would.
Problem is so far no-one has figured out how to create one without using huge amounts of electricity. Methanol is interesting but it takes 10MWh of electricty to make 1000kgs of the stuff. 10KWh per 1kg. 1kg of methanol contains about 6.4 KWh of energy.

An EV can do 40 miles on 10KWh. A methanol fuel cell car might do 15 miles at current fuel cell efficiencies so it's very wasteful of electricity at the moment.

 

[Refueler]

The Greenies always lose track of relating to peoples pockets ....

Its all fine preaching Green issues - but until the 'people' can see not only a 'health' but also financial advantage - Greenies will be crying into the wind.

 

[westernman]

I think the Greenies would be delighted to have a liquid fuel to replace diesel etc. I certainly would.
Problem is so far no-one has figured out how to create one without using huge amounts of electricity. Methanol is interesting but it takes 10MWh of electricty to make 1000kgs of the stuff. 10KWh per 1kg. 1kg of methanol contains about 6.4 KWh of energy.

An EV can do 40 miles on 10KWh. A methanol fuel cell car might do 15 miles at current fuel cell efficiencies so it's very wasteful of electricity at the moment.

How to create liquid fuel to replace diesel was figured out a long time ago.

That was pure 100% rapeseed oil.
I used to fill my car up with it in Munich around about 1990. That was a Citroen CX TRD Turbo II. Unmodified.

It was at the time slightly cheaper than diesel, but the fuel consumption was reputed to be very slightly higher (but I could not tell the difference).
The main difference was the exhaust smelt like a chip shop.

 

[kashurst]

The Greenies always lose track of relating to peoples pockets ....

Its all fine preaching Green issues - but until the 'people' can see not only a 'health' but also financial advantage - Greenies will be crying into the wind.

Renewable energy is much cheaper than fossil energy (except in the UK but we won't go there)
Electric machines are much cheaper to run than fossils and use a lot less energy overall. Second hand EVs etc are becoming bargain motoring.

 

[Refueler]

How to create liquid fuel to replace diesel was figured out a long time ago.

That was pure 100% rapeseed oil.
I used to fill my car up with it in Munich around about 1990. That was a Citroen CX TRD Turbo II. Unmodified.

It was at the time slightly cheaper than diesel, but the fuel consumption was reputed to be very slightly higher (but I could not tell the difference).
The main difference was the exhaust smelt like a chip shop.

You only have to see the farm fields today all yellow and that's RapeSeed - produced for BioFuel ...

Its become so widespread in so many countries - its affected staple food production. BUT the volume produced is still seriously short of what's required. Its why all Govt reqt's of % Bio in fuels has been largely ignored and not been met.

 

[benjenbav]

Perhaps the discussion document that sparked this thread could be amended to add a subsidy to buy a new sail boat? I hear they’re pretty green.

And maybe the way to go, if they up the comfort levels to mobo equivalent; fit some windows etc.

100% write down in year 1; zero VAT and 25% off parking fees should do nicely.

 

[PowerYachtBlog]

At the risk of bringing it back to boats I noticed an article in this month’s Motorboat & Yachting talking about a Sanlorenzo / MAN project which uses methanol.

This seems as though it has legs. Lower speed displacement cruising using methanol could be a self contained way forward which doesn’t require the rest of the world to invest in expensive infrastructure.

The first 50Steel, commissioned by Massimo Perotti himself, launched in mid 2024, is already a green methanol yacht, as done with Siemens Energy to what is the hotel mode of the yacht.
Three more 50Steel are commissioned though I do not know if they are ordered with the system. According to Sanlorenzo, 90% of a super yachts consumption actually comes from the hotel load rather then the use of engines. I know Sanlorenzo is now building a 50 X-Space which will feature a more advanced system to this version like a 1.2.
Feadship also delivered a green methanol super yacht in the fall of 2024, with the 118 meter hull. 821.
New Model: Sanlorenzo 50Steel
New Launch: Feadship 118.80m Hull.821