Net zero hits boating !

[westernman]

I look back now and can see the first generation products and look at the latest generation of essentially the same thing and the difference in say 15 years is dramatic.

First generation electric Porsche:-

Latest generation you all know.
Any progress made?

 

[franksingleton]

The thread is about boats net zero...its in the title....one (or at least silly me) thought that meant going all electric, therefore the discussion about where this electric is going to come from.

Just because someone else brought the subject up doesn't make it wise to latch on and start writing things that you then worry about being reported or banned.(FYI I have never reported anyone and certainly not you, and I wouldn't. )
If someone's keyboard develops tourette's
you wouldn't modified yours, would you?

Although it started as a discussion about going green on boats, there was, as so often, thread drift as I noted. The dreaded words C…… C….. were mentioned openly. Reference to the original topic was lost or, at least diluted. There were a number of posts that seemed quite detached from the OP.
I, too, have never reported anyone, even a dreadful deepest red American who both lied openly and was grossly insulting. If you think that I over react, he is probably the reason.

 

[billskip]

Although it started as a discussion about going green on boats, there was, as so often, thread drift as I noted. The dreaded words C…… C….. were mentioned openly. Reference to the original topic was lost or, at least diluted. There were a number of posts that seemed quite detached from the OP.
I, too, have never reported anyone, even a dreadful deepest red American who both lied openly and was grossly insulting. If you think that I over react, he is probably the reason.

Calm down Frank, it's a forum, one's health and quality of life doesn't react well with stress..

 

[franksingleton]

Calm down Frank, it's a forum, one's health and quality of life doesn't react well with stress..

You know my state of mind?

 

[Refueler]

The problem as I see it .. and staying on boats as much as possible.

Is the feasibility of boat being green ... and net zero ...

Now here's the tricky bit .... NET ZERO .... that means its NOT actually zero. Its this fancy trick that Govts and businesses - especially airlines - play .. where emissions are still bad - but due to carbon offset - they appear NET zero.

So can someone explain how a boat .. lets say a 30ft motorboat can ever be actually zero ... and in doing so - can it do the range the equivalent fuel powered boat can do and at similar speed etc. ?

We have Electric tourist boats on the canals in Riga ... very nice boats too ... but they rely on charging up multiple times per day ... how is that power provided to charge them ?

To illustrate daft ways to achieve 'net' ... my house solar - when I open my phones app to see what my solar is doing - I also get figures - as of today :

Solar producing (today is overcast) : 2.5KWh
Equivalent planting (trees) : 2.08
CO2 reduction : 3.74t
Standard coal saved : 1.5t

How they arrive at such figs - I have no idea ... but they are artificial numbers anyway ... maybe I should feel good ??

 

[benjenbav]

The problem as I see it .. and staying on boats as much as possible.

Is the feasibility of boat being green ... and net zero ...

Now here's the tricky bit .... NET ZERO .... that means its NOT actually zero. Its this fancy trick that Govts and businesses - especially airlines - play .. where emissions are still bad - but due to carbon offset - they appear NET zero.

So can someone explain how a boat .. lets say a 30ft motorboat can ever be actually zero ... and in doing so - can it do the range the equivalent fuel powered boat can do and at similar speed etc. ?

We have Electric tourist boats on the canals in Riga ... very nice boats too ... but they rely on charging up multiple times per day ... how is that power provided to charge them ?

To illustrate daft ways to achieve 'net' ... my house solar - when I open my phones app to see what my solar is doing - I also get figures - as of today :

Solar producing (today is overcast) : 2.5KWh
Equivalent planting (trees) : 2.08
CO2 reduction : 3.74t
Standard coal saved : 1.5t

How they arrive at such figs - I have no idea ... but they are artificial numbers anyway ... maybe I should feel good ??

Well, I asked my AI mate, who said:

“Net zero in the context of climate change means achieving a balance where the total amount of greenhouse gas emissions released into the atmosphere are equal to the amount removed, effectively creating a neutral impact on the climate.“

So, I’m guessing that planting trees and that sort of thing might offset running a boat that’s burning fossil fuel and putting out lots of CO2. But perhaps that’s all a bit like putting the engine and gearbox at opposite ends of a car to achieve good weight distribution for performance.

Something that’s running on electricity generated by fossil fuel is probably no more use than the proverbial ashtray on a motorbike.

But once you start generating electricity from solar, hydro, wind, waves etc it will help to reduce CO2 emissions from that class of item be it boat, car or other.

More importantly, sustainable electricity generation will tend not to increase overall CO2 emissions and avoid the need for so much offsetting. A better solution to the problem. But, like putting the engine and transmission in the middle of the car, one that will involve sacrifice, compromise and inconvenience in the short and medium term.

 

[Refueler]

Its the same as .... do we use the car to visit the corner shop 1/2 mile away or do we take the healthy option and walk ?

USA is a good example of this ... try find a road outside city / town centre with a pedestrian strip .. or 'sidewalk' as they call it ...

 

[kashurst]

The problem as I see it .. and staying on boats as much as possible.

Is the feasibility of boat being green ... and net zero ...

Now here's the tricky bit .... NET ZERO .... that means its NOT actually zero. Its this fancy trick that Govts and businesses - especially airlines - play .. where emissions are still bad - but due to carbon offset - they appear NET zero.

So can someone explain how a boat .. lets say a 30ft motorboat can ever be actually zero ... and in doing so - can it do the range the equivalent fuel powered boat can do and at similar speed etc. ?

We have Electric tourist boats on the canals in Riga ... very nice boats too ... but they rely on charging up multiple times per day ... how is that power provided to charge them ?

To illustrate daft ways to achieve 'net' ... my house solar - when I open my phones app to see what my solar is doing - I also get figures - as of today :

Solar producing (today is overcast) : 2.5KWh
Equivalent planting (trees) : 2.08
CO2 reduction : 3.74t
Standard coal saved : 1.5t

How they arrive at such figs - I have no idea ... but they are artificial numbers anyway ... maybe I should feel good ??

Making a boat effectively net zero would require calculating how much CO2 was created in its manufacturing, then add on all the CO2 created during it's designed life/use.
Then once you know that you need to do something else that absorbs that amount of CO2 over the design life of the boat.
Best thing is make machines that don't directly produce CO2 in use and have a decent working life and are easy to recycle so the next generation of machine is better again.

EV manufacturers do this is a variety of ways but overall they all need electricity to come from seriously capable renewable energy machines.
I have no idea what is happening in Riga but in the UK it is all pretty easy to see: National Grid: Live

 

[Refueler]

Making a boat effectively net zero would require calculating how much CO2 was created in its manufacturing, then add on all the CO2 created during it's designed life/use.
Then once you know that you need to do something else that absorbs that amount of CO2 over the design life of the boat.
Best thing is make machines that don't directly produce CO2 in use and have a decent working life and are easy to recycle so the next generation of machine is better again.

EV manufacturers do this is a variety of ways but overall they all need electricity to come from seriously capable renewable energy machines.
I have no idea what is happening in Riga but in the UK it is all pretty easy to see: National Grid: Live

Already answered about Latvia and electricity .... they are building huge solar farms in fields just outside city and towns ... before - it was wind turbines - but they are now out of favour and its solar farms ....

 

[KevinV]

So can someone explain how a boat .. lets say a 30ft motorboat can ever be actually zero ...

Well, my 22' boat's emissions are currently more than offset by the vegetation growing on a number my neighbours' boats....

 

[Poignard]

[...]
So can someone explain how a boat .. lets say a 30ft motorboat can ever be actually zero ... [...]

Yes, it's easy.

If someone who buys a motor boat for himself is compelled to buy a sailing yacht for me to use, then we're quits.

 

[franksingleton]

It is good that people generally are discussing the problems, firstly of not increasing GHGs in the atmosphere and, secondly, of reducing them. Although introduced as a motor boating problem, it is, of course far wider . There is no point in yachtsmen/women, I am one, feeling virtuous. These days, it is neither practical nor sensible to have a cruising yacht without an engine. At present, there seems no practical alternative to having some form of carbon based fuel. This is equally the case in many other energy driven activities - virtually everything that we do in order to exist.

We can all tinker around the margins: eat less meat, eat less, wrap up moe in winter, adapt to hot weather in the summer, use cars less etc etc. Ko-ko could have a big list. The type of discussion in this thread is very worthy but can be counter productive when the effect is seen to be more costly in the short or medium terms, especially when there is some effect, actual or perceived in taxation. All aspects of energy generation, use and conservation will have to come into play if future generations are going to thrive, rather than struggling to exist. Without much doubt there will be a continuing need for fossil fuels in the future. The more sparingly they are used the better. The same applies to other resources that have been gathering increased prominence, for example due the war in Ukraine.

I am all too aware that I have said it before. Concerted, global action is the only way forward. Global mitigation and adaptation are necessary if the Earth is going to be habitable in the future.

 

[KevinV]

It is good that people generally are discussing the problems, firstly of not increasing GHGs in the atmosphere and, secondly, of reducing them. Although introduced as a motor boating problem, it is, of course far wider . There is no point in yachtsmen/women, I am one, feeling virtuous. These days, it is neither practical nor sensible to have a cruising yacht without an engine. At present, there seems no practical alternative to having some form of carbon based fuel. This is equally the case in many other energy driven activities - virtually everything that we do in order to exist.

We can all tinker around the margins: eat less meat, eat less, wrap up moe in winter, adapt to hot weather in the summer, use cars less etc etc. Ko-ko could have a big list. The type of discussion in this thread is very worthy but can be counter productive when the effect is seen to be more costly in the short or medium terms, especially when there is some effect, actual or perceived in taxation. All aspects of energy generation, use and conservation will have to come into play if future generations are going to thrive, rather than struggling to exist. Without much doubt there will be a continuing need for fossil fuels in the future. The more sparingly they are used the better. The same applies to other resources that have been gathering increased prominence, for example due the war in Ukraine.

I am all too aware that I have said it before. Concerted, global action is the only way forward. Global mitigation and adaptation are necessary if the Earth is o ing to be habitable in the future.

TLDR

 

[franksingleton]

TLDR

I had the Pascal problem.

 

[Seastoke]

It's only doom and gloom if you perceive net zero as a threat or something you can ignore long term.
For those with a more enlightened view it is opportunity.

It’s like Brexit , it was going to be the end , now trump has stepped up , Starmer is now talking of doing trade deals around the world including boats.

 

[Refueler]

It’s like Brexit , it was going to be the end , now trump has stepped up , Starmer is now talking of doing trade deals around the world including boats.

As soon as I realised Trump was going to get back in again ... I was talking with others - time for UK / Europe to look to the rest of the world ... walk away from USA and Trump ... build an alternative trade floor.

We may see that develop .. we can only hope. UK has a unique advantage and opportunity IF Starmer can see it - UK still has Commonwealth ... still has economic power via City of London ... time to bring it all together and create for all ...

But this is getting even further away from Net Zero Boats !!

 

[Seastoke]

There are now plenty of examples of EVs that have done hundreds of thousands of miles on a battery. A recent one had a Tesla that had done 215k miles and still had 88% of it's original capacity. Even if it had done all 215,000 of those miles at 70mph, then it would be over 3000 hours of running. A more realistic 30mph average (it was a taxi) gives 7100 ish hours of running. And over 1000 battery cycles. And it's still going strong.

And that's with battery tech that is now some 5 years old.

How does that sort of engine hours and cycles compare with your usage? How many years of your use would that be?

On the seasonal use, there have also been studies done with EVs that have sat for a while, when the owners went abroad for a year etc. If left plugged in just to a standard 240v socket and occasionally topping themselves up to counter battery drain, as you would with a boat, there was no measurable degradation of the battery.

Do you know where all our lorries go when they fail mot, mostly on emissions . To Africa so what is the use of us towing the line on emissions etc if we are just moving the problem.

 

[Refueler]

Do you know where all our lorries go when they fail mot, mostly on emissions . To Africa so what is the use of us towing the line on emissions etc if we are just moving the problem.

When I was drivers mate with Heron Transport and then Rayfield Transport ... we sold all our old clapped out tractors .. Dexta, Fordson Major etc for Africa ... they went on Groundnut Schemes ...

 

[billskip]

Why cant we have charging points on bouys in anchorages and strategically positioned around the oceans

 

[franksingleton]

Why cant we have charging points on bouys in anchorages and strategically positioned around the oceans

Current practicality?