MiToS re-built/fit- versilcraft Mystery43

[MapisM]

(due to noise and iirc 65A @ 24vdc draw)

Well, here's a thought for Match II: fit both DC and AC (much more silent) blowers in the E/R.
No prize for guessing which builder does that as standard...

 

[vas]

Me again...

measuring about the bilges hasn't helped much, will really have to remove all floor before I can be sure if a reasonably sized black water tank can fit down there.
Picking from your discussion, I appreciate the fact that it's best if all holes in the blackwater tank are on top, but still don't know if I can do it.
One Q before I move to less smelly issues:

Regarding blackwater tank construction we have rotomoulded polyethylene (or however you spell that thing) as being the best or among the best, other plastics featuring high up the list and stainless steel at the bottom of the list due to corossion at the seams.
How can one built a v.e.r.y custom tank diy? Can I use thin ply and built the bowl so to speak (bottom+all sides) glass it on both inside and out, leave a decent flange around, built a cover, bolt it and glass it together and be dibe with?
Would that work???

on the other restoration topics open atm, windlass as per the other thread is ready, just needs polishing externally and a new seal for the motor cover...

New chapter is cleaning/polishing the 10 portholes.
Got a few here at the garage and started checking/cleaning a bit.

tried cleaning a bit the mess in order to eat away the material needed in order to remove pitting:

Need a lot more work, but I've not got the right tools atm.

Since polishing and finishing in general is not my strong point I've started reading on polishing aluminium and getting ready to buy the proper buffing/waxing/you name it stuff tomorrow and try them next week

Also cabin layout is more or less finalised with routing of pipework sorted (more or less...) and all other issues considered to a large extend. Not saying I'm not going to change again of course!

cheers

V.

 

[jfm]

How can one built a v.e.r.y custom tank diy? Can I use thin ply and built the bowl so to speak (bottom+all sides) glass it on both inside and out, leave a decent flange around, built a cover, bolt it and glass it together and be dibe with?
Would that work???

I would say that would work. There might be some odour-impervious resins you can use, but even with ordinary resin I'd expect that all to work. Get the flange flat and use polyurethane sealant. Good luck with it!
I like your latest cabin and shower room layouts

 

[rafiki_]

V, have you considered a rudimentary container, filled with a pucker flexible bag tank? You would not then have to worry about sealing etc, as the flex tank would cover this, assuming no opps for chafing?

 

[vas]

regarding blackwater tank, had an (thought at least!) smart idea of using polyethylene (sp?) sheets in order to built the tank and simply weld them in shape that would rest on a timber framework so no extra baffles and folds will be needed.

Talked to a company doing rotomoulding work using polyethylene powder/small balls on particular shaped mould, but it's a no go. He explained that even fixing tiny (needle head size) holes in rotomoulded tanks is not an easy feat and often results in a scrap tank, so no reasonable way to use that

They did recommend a local company that TIG welds properly (i.e. with ss material) SS sheets for food/catering business (building workbenches/tanks/etc) and they recon they should be able to do it properly with SS with no problems of rotting and/or puncturing.
I was wondering if anyone can comment or has experience on such work.

TBH, the best option still is the fiberglass over 9(??)mm plywood.

following autocad screencapture shows in the middle the blue oddly shaped five sided tank that fits under the feet of the double bed:

The polishing chapter is turning not to be great fun. Still need to figure out how to smooth alloy surfaces removing salt water pitting, grooves, etc.
Bought a two cloth disk, two paste kit, spend 20mins on the motor cover of the windlass with little success. Will bring the orbital sander from the craft tomorrow and try with 80-120grit paper to smooth things before getting into the cloth disks and polishing compounds...

cheers

V.

 

[jfm]

I personally would not have a s/s tank. Fine for a year or two then I'd wonder whether the weld will split tonight or tomorrow night, or on that wave I just fell off or the next one... The worry would spoil your karma!

It's nothing to do with weld quality and the fact you have a firm that does food grade stuff also doesn't help. It's all to do with the fact that human p!ss is full of dissolved salts and stuff and is a very fine electrolyte, and is a far superior corrosive agent than seawater. The corrosion can be crevice and other types, as well as electrolytic because the weld rod material will not be identical to the sheet material

I'd use say 5mm plywood and much thicker GRP, rather than thick plywood

EDit: I'm a bit worried about it being under the bed. Would prefer in the bilge. I've never known a black tank that doesn't occasionally smell, just a bit, and you dont want that in bedroom

 

[vas]

V, have you considered a rudimentary container, filled with a pucker flexible bag tank? You would not then have to worry about sealing etc, as the flex tank would cover this, assuming no opps for chafing?

nice idea, but I guess I wont find something that would be around 150lt through this shape I'm afraid
so looks like I'll be wasting lots of space in doing so.

V.

 

[vas]

I personally would not have a s/s tank. Fine for a year or two then I'd wonder whether the weld will split tonight or tomorrow night, or on that wave I just fell off or the next one... The worry would spoil your karma!

It's nothing to do with weld quality and the fact you have a firm that does food grade stuff also doesn't help. It's all to do with the fact that human p!ss is full of dissolved salts and stuff and is a very fine electrolyte, and is a far superior corrosive agent than seawater. The corrosion can be crevice and other types, as well as electrolytic because the weld rod material will not be identical to the sheet material

I'd use say 5mm plywood and much thicker GRP, rather than thick plywood

EDit: I'm a bit worried about it being under the bed. Would prefer in the bilge. I've never known a black tank that doesn't occasionally smell, just a bit, and you dont want that in bedroom

I appreciate v.much the fact that you like my design

re crevice corrosion I'm currently studying a couple of papers I downloaded trying to fully understand the issue, doesn't look an easy to handle issue so rather skip it (being an architect, I'm not particularly good at the theory end of mech eng tbh...)

I'm quite experienced with fiberglass, so I'll do that option, np (it will be cheaper as well)

I fully agree on the smell and under the bed thing, but unless I stuff it at the lazarette, I cannot think of another point tbh.
On an old ply hull, I count ease of access to the inside of the hull as being of paramount importance hence I don't want to fit anything large downthere. If I do, I feel that I'll have to be able to lift it once a year in order to see how things are underneath and how the frame is rotting along

I think we should let this issue in the backburner for the time being whilst I focus on more important issues and come back when the time comes.

I'm currently working on the heads/shower layout and detailing, twisting my brain figuring ways of lining the ply partitions and making sure I wont leave any exposed seams where water could find it's way to the bilges and at the same time keep the easy access to the frame/hull.


V.

 

[jfm]

I appreciate v.much the fact that you like my design

re crevice corrosion I'm currently studying a couple of papers I downloaded trying to fully understand the issue, doesn't look an easy to handle issue so rather skip it (being an architect, I'm not particularly good at the theory end of mech eng tbh...)

I'm quite experienced with fiberglass, so I'll do that option, np (it will be cheaper as well)

I fully agree on the smell and under the bed thing, but unless I stuff it at the lazarette, I cannot think of another point tbh.
On an old ply hull, I count ease of access to the inside of the hull as being of paramount importance hence I don't want to fit anything large downthere. If I do, I feel that I'll have to be able to lift it once a year in order to see how things are underneath and how the frame is rotting along

I think we should let this issue in the backburner for the time being whilst I focus on more important issues and come back when the time comes.

I'm currently working on the heads/shower layout and detailing, twisting my brain figuring ways of lining the ply partitions and making sure I wont leave any exposed seams where water could find it's way to the bilges and at the same time keep the easy access to the frame/hull.


V.

Yup, get your point. Everything on a boat is a bit of a compromise as we all know. In which case howsabout put black tank under bed but make sure to seal it in well behind plywood box/carcass for the bed base, screwed together with maybe silicone sealant or adhesive neoprene strip. Then black tank will be mostly be in a near- airtight box, but you can still remove and re-seal panels if you need to check on the tank anytime

Shower room assembly sounds tricky. Good luck with that

 

[longjohnsilver]

I personally would not have a s/s tank. Fine for a year or two then I'd wonder whether the weld will split tonight or tomorrow night, or on that wave I just fell off or the next one... The worry would spoil your karma!

It's nothing to do with weld quality and the fact you have a firm that does food grade stuff also doesn't help. It's all to do with the fact that human p!ss is full of dissolved salts and stuff and is a very fine electrolyte, and is a far superior corrosive agent than seawater. The corrosion can be crevice and other types, as well as electrolytic because the weld rod material will not be identical to the sheet material

I'd use say 5mm plywood and much thicker GRP, rather than thick plywood

EDit: I'm a bit worried about it being under the bed. Would prefer in the bilge. I've never known a black tank that doesn't occasionally smell, just a bit, and you dont want that in bedroom

Absolutely agree, nothing worse than a split holding tank to ruin your day. And yes they will always smell at some time, nothing worse than the smell of **** and p1ss to spoil your romantic evening (other than cleaning up the split tank contents!) Plastic or grp is the only way to go.

 

[burgundyben]

On an old ply hull, I count ease of access to the inside of the hull as being of paramount importance hence I don't want to fit anything large downthere. If I do, I feel that I'll have to be able to lift it once a year in order to see how things are underneath and how the frame is rotting along

I'm currently working on the heads/shower layout and detailing, twisting my brain figuring ways of lining the ply partitions and making sure I wont leave any exposed seams where water could find it's way to the bilges and at the same time keep the easy access to the frame/hull.

You clearly have a thorough understanding of owning an old plywood boat.

 

[vas]

on smelly things yet again!

a few points to clarify issues re black water tank and odour.

On your typical GRP hull, there may be some isolation between bilges and cabin living space. In my case there's definitely none! I mean the floor is a beam/ply construction that doesn't even end on the hull lining. There's some massive gaps in there that your whole lunchbox would go through...

So, regarding odour and assuming it comes from the actual connections (I cannot think how else you'll get odours - obviously an inspection hole on top is a connection and probably the most likely one to fail...) I can see I have an impossible to solve problem.
JFM, your idea of double skining so to speak the tank is good, but I'd expect in that case to extend the solution to a vent on the deck, makes sense or an overkill?
Further, even moving the blackwater tank way aft in the lazarette I'll be loosing some v.useful space no doubt, but I'll have the piping from the heads to the tank to worry about. And they're going to be around 10m long each, I know not a problem but experience says differently, the sorter the pipework the better imho.
I now realise why everyone in the marina says don't bother fitting one (once you also add the temps issue it's in the 30ies already down here...)

Ideal position would be (don't laugh!) under the 6massive batteries (service + engines) which live in the aft port side of the e/r. I'm saying it as they live relatively low AND the tray on which they are is fooked and I need to remove all of them and rebuilt the underlying ply construction. So within reason, I'd built a differently shaped one, lift the batteries higher by 40cm, still nicely visible and accessible and have a decent sized tank underneath. Hell, I could even wrap the thing up with rockwool or dow polysterine slabs to keep the sh11t cool (I don't believe I'm typing that...)

Further as boat is listing a bit to stbrd (I guess due to the genny that lives opposite the batteries and is much heavier..) having a 150-200lt tank on port is ok. Not happy that the COG goes up a bit but on 10-12tons moving a hundred kilos or so 500mm up and 1500mm of centre is peanuts.

so what does the panel think?

[later on I'll report on my progress in external paint stripping and other accounts.]

cheers

V.

 

[vas]

You clearly have a thorough understanding of owning an old plywood boat.

yep, I bought her knowing I'll spent a lot of time and based on the fact that I liked her, could see the potential for the alternations I'm carrying out and the reasonably low price. Your own rebuilt thread is a morale booster Only downside is that due to a fractured rib and a bit more work work that's cropped up, I cannot spend as much time as I want hence it looks like I'll take it easier and loose the summer, or spend more money to subcontract work which in the current economic situation down here is not a smart move...

V.

 

[rafiki_]

a few points to clarify issues re black water tank and odour.

On your typical GRP hull, there may be some isolation between bilges and cabin living space. In my case there's definitely none! I mean the floor is a beam/ply construction that doesn't even end on the hull lining. There's some massive gaps in there that your whole lunchbox would go through...

So, regarding odour and assuming it comes from the actual connections (I cannot think how else you'll get odours - obviously an inspection hole on top is a connection and probably the most likely one to fail...) I can see I have an impossible to solve problem.
JFM, your idea of double skining so to speak the tank is good, but I'd expect in that case to extend the solution to a vent on the deck, makes sense or an overkill?
Further, even moving the blackwater tank way aft in the lazarette I'll be loosing some v.useful space no doubt, but I'll have the piping from the heads to the tank to worry about. And they're going to be around 10m long each, I know not a problem but experience says differently, the sorter the pipework the better imho.
I now realise why everyone in the marina says don't bother fitting one (once you also add the temps issue it's in the 30ies already down here...)

Ideal position would be (don't laugh!) under the 6massive batteries (service + engines) which live in the aft port side of the e/r. I'm saying it as they live relatively low AND the tray on which they are is fooked and I need to remove all of them and rebuilt the underlying ply construction. So within reason, I'd built a differently shaped one, lift the batteries higher by 40cm, still nicely visible and accessible and have a decent sized tank underneath. Hell, I could even wrap the thing up with rockwool or dow polysterine slabs to keep the sh11t cool (I don't believe I'm typing that...)

Further as boat is listing a bit to stbrd (I guess due to the genny that lives opposite the batteries and is much heavier..) having a 150-200lt tank on port is ok. Not happy that the COG goes up a bit but on 10-12tons moving a hundred kilos or so 500mm up and 1500mm of centre is peanuts.

so what does the panel think?

[later on I'll report on my progress in external paint stripping and other accounts.]

cheers

V.

V, sounds like the bones of a plan, and somewhat easier to get at than under the fwd berth. I guess this position will not really affect how she sits in the water, as max full will only be the same as 2 lightweight adults. Like you, I would be cautious about the run on the hose. I guess you have to be careful that the hose runes downhill to the tank, as it is no use trying to push ****e uphill (note I have been trying to do this most of my working life)

 

[BartW]

V,
don't you have space in the bilges somewhere for the black tank,
as much to stern as possible,
that would be my first choice..
(i might have missed the reason why this is not possible)

 

[vas]

@rafiki, yep true should be possible and with easy access, not smelly (unlikely to smell more than diesel under the circumstances) and vented outside not in the cabins.
Further, cabling down there by the batteries is a real mess and I've not attended it yet so plenty of opportunity to clear things up and organise them properly. Could even make the tank slide out to the middle isle without affecting the batteries and my back...
So you've been working as a plumber or are you in marketing

@bart, due to the wooden stringers every 30-45cm that are around 25X120mm in section the actual bilges space is NOT that much. Adding to that the plywood partitions that go all the way down and rest (well actually are bonded/screwed/etc) to the stringers or other structural members the space is not that much open plan either...
Visibility of the framework is a must (to spot leaks or odd things) and doesn't help either.

Will measure tomorrow and come back with a proper plan soon.

Now on the stripping front, I had one more cabin to attend (was avoiding it as it was full of cr4ap from the rest of the craft) So, cleared everything out and last week managed to get the important bits out and examine the hull.

existing condition:

after removal of port berth:

the lining of the cupboard in the room (that's not a cloth its plywood, OK )

and the excessive antisiphon in the bilge pump behind the lining of the cupboard.

Does it REALLY have to by that long, craft would be no doubt sinking way before the water reaches that point! from the aft deck for starters
Is there any rationale for this excess?


And the reason for all the mess is as always and all around MiToS the railings supports that are ALL leaking on port side, a few on stbrd. That was another failure of the previous owner when relining the deck with plywood and relocating (rather lifting 12mm up) the railing supports.
OK, there were also leaks from the old deck before that to account for the damage on things like the cupboard lining for example

Outside, I started working my way on stripping paint/primer from the flybridge going down to the deck level (hopefully will be a two week project with some help)
Using a 2KW heat gun and a good scrapper it works out at 1msq per 3hrs, but I'm working on improving that
Paint comes easily and nicely out, but the bugger is the carmine coloured old undercoat. I need to check with West Systems ppl (as I'll be coating everything with their products) but I feel I need to remove that as well.

Not particularly nasty surprises, burgundyben could have a case on needing to use a new piece of ply on this detail I showed last week, as scrapping revealed the obvious rot (not surprised as it's a definitely BAD detailing on the original design)

The main problem I'm facing with working on the f/b is that it's already too fcking hot and too sunny to work so I have to be there at 7:30 am and work till 11:30 before it becomes unbearable. Then you can work again after 5:30pm. I know I know you lot up north are complaining about the rain and cold and we down south are complaining about the heat. I think it's part of the human nature to simply complain no matter what

a few more things to post but don't have time right now, so tomorrow again!

Cheers

V.

 

[BartW]

http://fos.prd.uth.gr/vas/crafts/mitos/rebuilt2/portcabindismantle_9.jpg[/IMG]
Does it REALLY have to by that long,

don't know, happy to learn from other,

on BA, the bilgepump('s) goes straight to a outlet 30cm above waterline

on the Karnic, the same,
except the shower pump outlet is just above water level, and I had to make a sifon myself, by lifting the hose, make a loop about 20cm above water level ...
(water came in when heavy loaded)

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

So, regarding odour and assuming it comes from the actual connections (I cannot think how else you'll get odours - obviously an inspection hole on top is a connection and probably the most likely one to fail...) I can see I have an impossible to solve problem.

The pipes are the most likely source of odour because over time they become porous and whilst you probably won't see any leaks, odour will come through the walls of the pipes. Thats why you must use sewage quality pipes, not bilge pump type pipes

JFM, your idea of double skining so to speak the tank is good, but I'd expect in that case to extend the solution to a vent on the deck, makes sense or an overkill?

Whatever you do, the tank must be vented to the outside of the boat and it is a good idea to fit an odour filter in the vent pipe otherwise your neighbours will know exactly when you've used the toilet

Further, even moving the blackwater tank way aft in the lazarette I'll be loosing some v.useful space no doubt, but I'll have the piping from the heads to the tank to worry about. And they're going to be around 10m long each, I know not a problem but experience says differently, the sorter the pipework the better imho

.
Bad idea because then the gradient of the pipes will be shallow and you may even create low spots in the pipes where blackwater will collect and that will cause the pipes to become porous even more quickly. Best to have short runs of pipe with steep gradients

I now realise why everyone in the marina says don't bother fitting one (once you also add the temps issue it's in the 30ies already down here...)

I don't know what the regulations are in Greece but in other areas of the Med it is strictly forbidden to discharge black water into harbours and close to shore. Also it really isn't a nice thing to do when you are at anchor and people are swimming close by

 

[jfm]

Bad idea because then the gradient of the pipes will be shallow and you may even create low spots in the pipes where blackwater will collect

I agree you must avoid low spots but there is nothing wrong with a shallow gradient. A gradient is a gradient and the stuff in question will flow to the tank even with a 3 degree (say) gradient. (Indeed, in domestic plumbing you make sure to have shallow gradients to avoid stranding the solids, as V you will know from architecture knowledge).

In any case, the gradient will increase as you rise onto the plane

 

[burgundyben]

I think on a plywood boat it is rarely the case that a piece of plywood can be fixed/patched/epoxied successfully for a long term repair.

In most cases the effective (an often quickest) repair is a new bit.

Good luck!