MiToS re-built/fit- versilcraft Mystery43

[Deleted User YDKXO]

mike, the three days would be my target, mind wont be spending lots of time in a marina with the 8ppl on board, will mostly be 5-6 on board for longish periods!

Seems that I'll have to go for a custom built one and that means SS, aiming for around 200lt, oddly shaped to fit in the bow under the bed (although I'm not particularly happy about sleeping on top of it tbh but I hope I'll get over it...) Another good thing about bow placement is that it'll be easier to remember when it's full through trim tabs position on plane I guess.

Anyone would know/recommend a reasonable gauge for SS sheet material for this job? Also what type of s.steel would that be? Obviously don't need to be food grade ss (is that 916 don't remember!) but what combo would be suitable?
Got fabricators here that could do the job quite cheap, plasma cutting my design and folding/welding it in shape. Just need the specs to get a quote and obviously don't want to get over the top as this thing will weigh a bit...

cheers

V.

Agree with jfm. I would have a custom built sanitation quality plastic tank made by Lee Sanitation http://www.leesan.com/index.asp?m=3&cat1=3&cat2=12&t=Holding%20Tanks or Tek Tankshttp://www.tek-tanks.com/. I don't think they're that expensive. Also, I would try not to place the tank under your bed. However well you build the system, you will get odour coming from the system, usually from the pipes becoming slightly porous, but in a few years it will smell and you really don't want that in your sleeping cabin. Also, if you locate the tank in the bow, it will be more subject to shock loading from rough seas so IMHO it will be more likely to leak in that position. Personally speaking, I would find a position in the bilges, preferably not under a cabin and accept that you have to fit a pump which anyway is the most common method

 

[jfm]

Also, I would try not to place the tank under your bed. However well you build the system, you will get odour coming from the system, usually from the pipes becoming slightly porous, but in a few years it will smell and you really don't want that in your sleeping cabin. Also, if you locate the tank in the bow, it will be more subject to shock loading from rough seas so IMHO it will be more likely to leak in that position. Personally speaking, I would find a position in the bilges, preferably not under a cabin and accept that you have to fit a pump which anyway is the most common method

Agreed 100%. There is nothing wrong with a pump to empty the tank.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Agreed 100%. There is nothing wrong with a pump to empty the tank.

I would have thought a pump is more desirable anyway because it can develop a higher suction and pumping pressure than a gravity discharge system can ever develop so less chance of a blocked discharge pipe?

 

[jfm]

I would have thought a pump is more desirable anyway because it can develop a higher suction and pumping pressure than a gravity discharge system can ever develop so less chance of a blocked discharge pipe?

Yup agreed. There's lots to like about a pump. Except the fact that one worth having is €1000...

 

[vas]

Yup agreed. There's lots to like about a pump. Except the fact that one worth having is €1000...

oi you lot, please relax a bit, you've almost persuaded me to go for bilge installation, but I aint paying 5% of the craft value for a fcking pump, for god sake! no other options???

Did some calculations as I spent the evening working in MiToS and under half the double bed, and 40cm above waterline, I can have a 30cm deep tank oddly shaped (OK, not so odd, it's a trapezium in plan) that will hold 180lt.
However, I can also understand that a wide and shallow tank is no good and I also appreciate mike's comments on odour...

So by the w/e I should have the bow cabin floor removed so that I can carefully measure what size tank I could fit under there. But plz JFM I'd expect a much cheaper pump! I vaguely remember a discussion of you two regarding black water pumps but cannot easily find it in the forum now. IIRC mike was also reluctant to pay 1K for the pump you recommended and in his case it wouldn't even be 0.5% of the craft value .

Need to calculate access ports size, pipe routing and all that in advance and it's not that easy.
Another pipework Q, why don't ppl use Valsir PVC pipes with rubber seals (plain push fit) as in domestic and industrial installations? They're available in a variety of sizes and a good range of curves/angles available. Why this fixation with flexible stuff? Is it only for vibrations???

On another front, I spend around an hour trying to figure out how to use my hot air gun thing and remove old coats of paint on the exterior. Started on an area that I've tried scrapping using a multitool (like fein, just 20% of it's price...) and I'd made a mess of it as the scarpel tool was digging in the plywood.
Anyway, with this tool I managed to heat/bubble and scrape the paint (all three-four coats of it + primer in most areas) without a lot of physical effort. The technique is something I have to master, as I also have to figure out what to do with the clean ply once it dries properly. I mean I have to remove some rotten material out of some obvious spots as in the fourth pic down and prime it or just cover it and wait for the overall treatment/prime/filler/paint sequence. I guess once I pick up speed and improve on the technique I should be able to do over half a sqm per hour. Means should do the above the gunwale ext. in a few days...

Will also have to try below wl and see how fast scrapping progresses down there. If I've got a clean hull and superstructure ready for priming and painting by the end of May I should be extremely happy!

the stbrd side of the fb helm, see how badly cracked and messed up the paint is.

the clean port side, note that the actual helm "box" was originally painted black

..as was the thin ply panels from the railing to the floor in the next pic

Yes here it's well rotten but perfectly acceptable as it should have a small spout (or however you call it) draining the water that lands and stays up there in the corner. Not something a bit of West wont fix tbh

Tomorrow plan is to remove a few more leftovers on the bow cabin (as well as the sink of the ex crew cabin!) as well as the two front portholes and start a proper cleanup, measurement and removal or the floor by the w/e.

As per the teak vs cork thread, I tried JFMs suggestion regarding removing the ply on top of the teak and checking teak condition (OK in order to glue new teak veneer on top). Unfortunately for some reason (I *think* screws are galvanised and not ss!) all screw heads are rusted and filled with glue making them impossible to acces and remove. That's not going to be fun as it looks like I have to go around with me dremell excavating/cutting one gazzilion screwheads pulling the ply up and then find a way of removing the screw bodies by molegrip or something. Doesn't look easy tbh, will have to think about it Will try wirebrushing the heads in order to clean them and see if I have any luck in removing them like that. I wonder what's the best time to do that as far as ext. temp and sun is concerned. I mean is teak holding tighter on the screws in the morning with a cool 15-20C or best mid day at 25+C (and soon 30...). Any ideas on that?

24V supply was playing some tricks on me today though so I may have to spend some time sorting it as well.
Service bat voltometer was showing 10V when I arrived, connected shore power, jumped a bit, turned on a few loads jumped up to 28V and worked happily. At some point when I was getting ready to leave, I switched off service bat from the el.panel switched it back on and went down to 10V (shore power connected!) tinkering a bit got back to 28V and all worked fine. Had a final go (off on) and stuck to 10V no matter what.

I recon a loose connection within the cleaned up el.panel, so will have a go at checking/tightening connectors...

enough of a report for today, tomorrow will be a full day in MiToS so expect another report and possibly a few more Qs

cheers

V.

 

[Divemaster1]

oi you lot, please relax a bit, you've almost persuaded me to go for bilge installation, but I aint paying 5% of the craft value for a fcking pump, for god sake! no other options???
........

For the records, our water and waste tank (140L) is under the bed the front (opposite sides) ... 5 years down, no problem with odour .... and I have a much cheaper pump in the crew cabin pumping the stuff out through the hull fitting for the crew cabins toilet.

 

[MapisM]

oi you lot, please relax a bit, you've almost persuaded me to go for bilge installation, but I aint paying 5% of the craft value for a fcking pump, for god sake! no other options???

When I re-fitted both toilet on my boat with Tecma WCs, I also installed a black water tank.
After some researches, I found that the macerator pump which comes installed inside each WC could also effectively work as a black tank pump.
Not very fast/powerful, but good enough for the job and (obviously) resistant to the type of liquids we're talking about.
So, I bought one of these pumps as a spare part (they were NOT sold for the black tank application).
Not cheap, but way below the one grand that jfm mentioned. In the 150 to 200 Eur region IIRC, though I'm talking of 10 years ago.

And as a side bonus, the three pumps (2 WCs+tank) could be switched in case of fault, allowing the choice of:
1) in the event of a faulty WC pump, replace it with the tank pump and still have both WC working, albeit switching to direct discharge and not using the tank;
2) in the event of the tank pump failing, replace it with one of the WC pumps and still have the tank working, albeit with just one toilet.
I'm not sure if this is still feasible with the latest Tecma WCs/pumps, but if it is, that's a clever option imho.

Incidentally, all 3 pumps are still working perfectly.

 

[jfm]

pumping craap

When I re-fitted both toilet on my boat with Tecma WCs, I also installed a black water tank.
After some researches, I found that the macerator pump which comes installed inside each WC could also effectively work as a black tank pump.
Not very fast/powerful, but good enough for the job and (obviously) resistant to the type of liquids we're talking about.
So, I bought one of these pumps as a spare part (they were NOT sold for the black tank application).
Not cheap, but way below the one grand that jfm mentioned. In the 150 to 200 Eur region IIRC, though I'm talking of 10 years ago.

And as a side bonus, the three pumps (2 WCs+tank) could be switched in case of fault, allowing the choice of:
1) in the event of a faulty WC pump, replace it with the tank pump and still have both WC working, albeit switching to direct discharge and not using the tank;
2) in the event of the tank pump failing, replace it with one of the WC pumps and still have the tank working, albeit with just one toilet.
I'm not sure if this is still feasible with the latest Tecma WCs/pumps, but if it is, that's a clever option imho.

Incidentally, all 3 pumps are still working perfectly.

That sounds good MapisM and in fact I have TWO spare Tecma pumps (long story...) and am unlikley ever to need one let alone two so I'll happily donate one to MiToS foc if V goes for the pumped tank option, by express mail to Volos! 24v btw, V, and 38mm dia in/outlets

BUT MapisM, these pumps are centrifugal so will not prime. I like ALL my black tank unions to be on the top of the tank which means using a diaphragm pump or the Johnson impeller type, not centrifugal. You must have the tank discharge fed out from the bottom of the tank, right? Are you happy about that? Just with jubilee clips or what? Makes me shudder a bit...

 

[MapisM]

You must have the tank discharge fed out from the bottom of the tank, right? Are you happy about that? Just with jubilee clips or what?

Precisely. The clips are pretty strong anyway, and there's two of them at each connection.
So far, so good, but I see what you mean.
Actually, with my boat it would have been a problem to have the discharge on top, because there wasn't a lot of depth where the tank was fitted, so I had to take the risk...

 

[petem]

Sorry if this is obvious but you need a paint scraper that you drag not push to prevent it from digging into the ply. Something like this.....

http://www.stortz.com/catalog.asp?prodid=681103

 

[burgundyben]

Sorry if this is obvious but you need a paint scraper that you drag not push to prevent it from digging into the ply. Something like this.....

http://www.stortz.com/catalog.asp?prodid=681103

No no no, he needs a hammer, jigsaw and a sheet of plywood.

That's not something I would be repairing with West, a drain hole would be a 'limber' hole.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

oi you lot, please relax a bit, you've almost persuaded me to go for bilge installation, but I aint paying 5% of the craft value for a fcking pump, for god sake! no other options???

jfm likes all his onboard equipment to be gold plated including his taps and door handles which is why he mentioned £1000 but you need not pay that much for a discharge pump. Perfectly good waste pumps here for less than £200 http://www.leesan.com/index.asp?m=3&cat1=3&cat2=15&t=Holding%20Tank%20Discharge%20Pumps

 

[jfm]

jfm likes all his onboard equipment to be gold plated including his taps and door handles which is why he mentioned £1000 but you need not pay that much for a discharge pump. Perfectly good waste pumps here for less than £200 http://www.leesan.com/index.asp?m=3&cat1=3&cat2=15&t=Holding%20Tank%20Discharge%20Pumps

Thanks Mike. You're right; I must be punch drunk on SofF prices. The T series on that page £359 is the one to get. The smaller £171 diaphragm pump is a nice unit but very small and therefore very slow for black tank use(I have one for my aft shower)

 

[vas]

hm, lots of traffic today, so I'll go for a long reply trying to address all things discussed + new findings from todays hard work, so bear with me...

On the caraap front,

The stick it in the bilges argument is nice, but doesn't necessarily work everywhere. My problems are:

• Due to age, ply/wood and condition of the craft I'd like to be able to check the bilges regularly. If I stick a massive tank down there, I wont be able to visually nspect 3-4 beams (or however you call them!)
• JFM, you say don't fit them under a cabin, only option will be the corridor and if I'm lucky (I'll check tomorrow) I should be able to juuuust fit a 0.4X1.0X0.4 tank, all of 160-lt. Slighly offcentre to stbrd.
• I guess crushed sh11t wont travel long horizontaly, so I cannot really put the tank in the e/r some 8m away, can I? Even if it can, I wouldn't be happy about that as I feel that there will be lots of deposits left in the pipes eventually blocking them (anyway methinks!)

OTOH, an above w/l tank (a la Alf) under the legs area of the double bed, means I have minimum pipe length from the toilets and just a quarter-turn seacock to empty the lot.
I'd like to ask again if anyone has tried/knows whatif I use hard pvc piping for home installations (particularly valsir connections with a rubber o-ring)

closing, jfm thanks VERY much for your kind offer, really obliged, I'll most likely take it if I go for the under w/l route and likewise MM wont have ANY space to spare on top of the tank. We'll see soon I guess.


On the rotten ply issue:

petem yes I do have the pull and not push scrapper, but I only use it for small detailing. Most paint/primer will buble and come easily off using the plain scrapper. My comment on digging in the material was for the multitool with the v.sharp chissel.
Burgundyben, it's not structural, rot is in a smallish area of 80x30mm so I'll remove all affected material and see what kind of hole I get and if it's big I'll patch it else I wont bother and use west.
I'll have enough of repairing on other more important spots

Now, new stuff
Well, not quite new as I've mentioned them before (it's regarding water ingress from the port furthest to the bow railing base)
I managed to remove all bits that were left over 3months ago when I dismantled the crew cabin, also removed the two bow portholes, crew cabin sink et al. That's how it looks now:

Cleaning and checking around I thought I'll see from underneath what's happening with the teak planks I was seeing and try to hammer a few screws up from underneath
Well in some of the area that is soaking wet (from centerline to port and from the end of the sun deck till the level of the windlass) I realised that the planks were soft I poked a bit and realised that ITS NOT TEAK!
It looks like teak from underneath, it comes in around 200mm wide planks with seams (thin!) between them BUT it's some sort of laminate
I think I've mentioned that before as from the plank section on the side of the sundeck teak looked rather thin. Now, using a screwdriver I managed to break through 3 layers of material and reach the new plywood on top. It looks like some sort of laminate, but thickish layer I'd say around 2mm min each. What's v.odd is that even when I reached the solid plywood on top the last layer I removed (i.e. the top most layer before the plywood was fitted) doesn't look like the grooved/black chaulk thing I was expecting, it was a plain darkish colour solid strip of wood.
So to summarize, the existing plywood deck was bolted/glued on top of a 6-8mm "thing" which was a laminate of some sort. Rings a bell to anyone? Not to me for sure!

So looks like I need to replace 3-4 beams holding the two sides together around the deck hatch area and although the plywood decking is sound and solid, I guess it's a deck out job altogether in order to remove all of the delaminated original deck-thing. Reaching this level, means that I can easily stretch the sundeck 70-90cm to the bow (that was my original plan tbh) so that I have a slightly higher and smooth (as in no steps over my head!) ceiling over the double bed.
This way I can save on teak as I'll need 2sqm less material
I'll also skip the deck hatch as I wont have a place to fit it

So photos time, three pics from the deck hatch area looking aft (first pic) and third pic looking to port and damaged area:

and a detail of the problematic area where you can see the various laminate sheets (in the centre of the photo you just look at the new marine ply btw:

So looks like I'll have a bit more work than planned, but at least I'll get rid of the plywood bolted on the bow, always look at the bright side of life

cheers

V.

 

[burgundyben]

You are braver than me!

 

[petem]

You are braver than me!

Me too. Took me 2 years to put up a picture in our lounge!

 

[rafiki_]

Crikey V, its not getting any easier for you.

 

[jfm]

I guess crushed sh11t wont travel long horizontaly, so I cannot really put the tank in the e/r some 8m away, can I?

TBH it is very watery, and indeed Tecma quote incredible pipe length twixt WC and tank, like 80m for the 24v version, sheesh. But I wouldn't want to put tank in e/r because of the heat. A tank full of cold crushed shiit is surely better than a tank full of 60degC warmed up shiit. Apart from odour issues, the water in the tank would evaporate thru the vent, potentially leaving just rock hard solids to chisel out

jfm thanks VERY much for your kind offer,

OK. We could do with MapisM comment on how he installed a non priming centrifugal pump. Black tank outlet at bottom of tank MapisM? Has that worked ok? Are you ok with it philosophically?

 

[MapisM]

Black tank outlet at bottom of tank MapisM? Has that worked ok? Are you ok with it philosophically?

Yes, yes, and not so much. But as I said, I didn't have much choices, due to depth constraints.
And (touch wood), I never had any troubles, after almost a decade.
Here, I said that. Non I must be prepared to get sh!t all over the bilge pretty soon, I suppose.
Oh, well. At least that's a self-revealing event, so to speak, which makes pointless any kind of alarm...

On a side note, J, 60° inside the e/r?
Geez, you'd better fit some bigger vents, I reckon!
The rule of thumb should be not more than 10° above external temp, afaik.

PS: sorry, can't post pics of the pump/tank installation, 'cause I don't have any, and I won't be onboard till the end of may...

 

[jfm]

Yes, yes, and not so much. But as I said, I didn't have much choices, due to depth constraints(

OK, thanks, then it is V's choice, and I'm happy to mail him the pump if he chooses a bottom outlet for the black tank

On a side note, J, 60° inside the e/r?
Geez, you'd better fit some bigger vents, I reckon!
The rule of thumb should be not more than 10° above external temp, afaik

Yes, when running, the airflow through the e/r from the vents will ensure e/r air temp is ~10deg above ambient, if not better. But when I stop I have 5+ tonnes of cast iron at 80degC (coolant jacket temperature; exhausts are hotter) plus gensets and I need to shut the e/r fans down after say 10minutes (due to noise and iirc 65A @ 24vdc draw) which means ambient temp in the e/r is high, eg 60deg, for 6+ hours