Marina fees

[BruceK]

I don't see marina's as just storage areas. If my boat was locked up in a shed or on the hard behind locked gates , this in my book would be storage. Maybe this is why there's some disagreement here and confusion by marina operators as to how to approach this issue.

I agree. Although I am not in a marina I kind of view them in the same light as a restaurant. You are prepared to pay a very high value for your plate not because that is how much the food cost but for a whole host of add-ons. Ambience, experience, service, convenience etc etc. Sure it costs the restaurants more than food itself in rent, salaries etc. But then so are the supermarkets paying rent and salaries. No, it's down to the those extras and if the marinas are not or cannot deliver them they are hard pressed to argue the rates they are charging over and above the harbour duties and where I am that is less than 20% of a marina berth's cost.

 

[Blue Sunray]

That is a very good point - it does seem that Marina's will be included within the 'Leisure' category: Financial Guidance

My marina (MDL Cobbs Quay) has a £365,000 rateable value so will be saving something in the region of £182,500 plus presumably the £25,000 business support grant, plus furlough support.

PLUS of course most of the onsite tenant businesses will be getting £10,000 (as SBRR) as well as furlough support (albeit I do have sympathy for any small business at present).

It is one thing accepting that you are still paying for your boat to sit in a secure marina but if you can't access it nor use the services that the marina usually offers (but at present doesn't need to as no berth holders are present) AND it gets a good chunk of government support then surely a 50% discount in 'lockdown' months would be fair.

And then it gets my goat a little, that liveaboards (who shouldn't be liveaboards anyway at our marina - naughty MDL turning a blind eye) are allowed to continue to benefit from facilities - being the party who get most vfm from their marina fees anyway.

Rant over but MDL and others really should sort out something (like it sounds Dean & Reddyhoff have done) to make it fair to berth holders.

I'm coming round to that way of thinking as well particularly after MDL's crass Facebook posts yesterday.

 

[TwoHooter]

It would be nice if marinas would give a little grace even if it was a say the duration of lock down for e.g if lock down was for 2 months then 14 months for a 12 month contract.
However in reality the Marina can and will probably say that the lockdown period decision was the government's not theirs and you pay the contract whether the boat is on the hard or in the water.
without sounding downgrading - but basically marinas - caravan parks etc are just storage areas - you wouldn't expect a discount from Pickfords for storing your items that you cannot access.
jon

I do expect a discount (or even a refund) if I pay for a service which is then not performed, even if the non-performance is due to government order.

The services provided by marinas consist only partly of pure storage. The services of a marina include a mooring for a boat (storage if you like) and the ability to use the boat either in the marina or on cruises out from the marina. The use of the boat is now prohibited and therefore that part of the service is not being performed.

I and the company of which I am a director are giving rent holidays where they are needed and we want to help the tenants. The marinas need to think quickly and do something for the boat owners. The government assistance which they are receiving should provide the headroom they need for this.

 

[volvopaul]

The only reason I see any marina operator to be giving anything back to it’s clients would be the fact that the companies operating costs be reduced.
That being reduced rates, council tax reduction, any lease or rental agreements with third parties .
Staff wages etc .
The Marinas at this time of year are loosing a high amount of income in boat lifts , look at how busy they normally are this time of year , must be running into hundreds of thousands by now . Not having to empty bins and clean toilets is a mere drop in the ocean as most are on contracts with other companies.
Tough times ahead , I am lucky as I can carry on all Be it having to juggle work around in a different order , mainly working on Boats in the water rather than ashore outdrive work etc .
It’s going to be a mad rush when it all starts again and by now we are a month behind .
Stay s

 

[Blue Sunray]

It’s going to be a mad rush when it all starts again and by now we are a month behind .
Stay s

I suspect it is, which (depending of course when it happens) would indicate that a lot of those lifts are going to happen anyway, the income is thus deferred rather than lost. Visitor fees will undoubtedly be down but if we are able to get on the water by June/July the peak season will still be there and I suspect that huge number of people will be staying in the UK who might otherwise have gone overseas.

D&R seem to have shown how to pay the PR game at least, at the end of the day it's a business decision, but I'm certainly reevaluating my options for the end of this year's contract.

 

[petem]

As a direct result of the crisis our income has fallen to 39% of pre-crisis level, partly because we are giving rent holidays to tenants who have been closed down or made redundant. I'm also a director of a company which has given rent holidays (and in one case received a peremptory letter from a large pub operator which said they will simply stop paying rent).
We are now living off savings. We have always been careful and fortunately we do have some savings.
The boat is now our biggest single monthly expense. I'm hopeful that our marina is starting to think about some reduction in rent because I understand they are furloughing some employees (which means the government will pay the salaries) and are in receipt of the business rates relief for the whole of 2020/21 (link).
If they don't volunteer a rent reduction I'm going to request it politely.
At the very least we ought to get the benefit of the rates relief.

When you say holiday, will you try and recover missed rent at a later date or write it off?

 

[Dorset Dan]

The Marinas at this time of year are loosing a high amount of income in boat lifts , look at how busy they normally are this time of year , must be running into hundreds of thousands by now . Not having to empty bins and clean toilets is a mere drop in the ocean as most are on contracts with other companies.

... a lot of those lifts are going to happen anyway, the income is thus deferred rather than lost

I agree that an element of this will probably be income deferred rather than lost, but there are some lifts that will not be deferred (for sea trials that simply won't have occurred, for emergency maintanence that isn't required as boats not in use, etc)

Having said that, my lift out cost each year is less than 10% of my annual berthing fees and as it happens I have already done my lift out and used a different marina for this anyway (combination of a 5 month wait at MDL Cobbs Quay for time ashore for maintenance, and the other marina having space immediately and being cheaper for this anyway). So they haven't lost anything from me.

Berthing fees will significantly dwarf all other income from berth holders, so any loss in ancillaries will not be 'that' significant. Fuel is charged at cost by MDL so we are told so no loss of profit there, and I am still using electricity, which are my only other real costs apart from spending with on site tenants.

So, for me anyway, MDL isn't losing out on a penny of income this year but they are achieving operating cost savings at a time when I cannot use their facilities in possibly 1 or 2 (hopefully not 3 or 4) of the only months that I would be using them regularly. A 50% discount whilst in lockdown is the fair thing in my mind - and like D&R are proposing, I am happy to have this as a 'credit' rather than a repayment or cash reduction, so ultimately it gets 'spent' with them (either on marina services or against next years berthing fees) - this way it keeps all customer goodwill intact whilst still maintaining their cash position at this time.

And just had an update e-mail from Michael Glanville, the MD of MDL - made me chuckle that he describes them as a 'family owned business'. Whilst that may be technically correct, it is owned by a Plc (albeit privately owned) that has assets of c£300m including cash of almost £50m. Not quite the 'family owned' business that this image portrays......but anyway, for anyone that hasn't seen it, he states the following:

"Some of you have told us about operators offering 50% off April’s berthing fees for some of their customers, a discount for them held against future services on their account. Some of you have asked individually about any support we can give as you are facing income challenges yourself.

Like all businesses and many of you personally, we await the outcome of Government support, full assistance with rates that has not yet been forthcoming and the job retention scheme is not yet open for applications.

For many of you, April was the start of your berthing season, a new contract year perhaps at a new MDL marina. I want to continue to invest in our marinas, keep our fantastic team employed and be able to provide the comprehensive range of services and benefits that we do today in the future. That is why right now, just 15 days into the season and 15 days into the berthing contract for some, is not the right time to add additional credits on account that you cannot use, or make a gesture now that reduces the enjoyment of our services you might have when the doors open again.

Therefore, I ask that you rest assured of two things: firstly, if you are facing significant difficulties paying your berthing fees and need individual guidance about berthing product options tailored to you and your circumstances, please contact our Sales and Marketing Director, Tim Mayer, on t.mayer@mdlmarinas.co.uk. Tim will call you at a time convenient for you to discuss how we might be able to help."

So that is their stance and with thousands of berth holders they assign poor old Tim to deal with every customer facing difficulties? He could be a busy man.....I'm glad to say that I don't need to make that call as i am fortunate that my business is able to carry on at this time (we are B2B and able to carry on, though not without financial challenge however) so will not need to request this support, but I still think that they are missing the key point here and the effect that it will have on longer term customer goodwill by not making any gesture. Maybe they will in due course.

If not, I will have to look up where is my nearest D&R marina........

 

[chrisharris]

I agree that an element of this will probably be income deferred rather than lost, but there are some lifts that will not be deferred (for sea trials that simply won't have occurred, for emergency maintanence that isn't required as boats not in use, etc)

Having said that, my lift out cost each year is less than 10% of my annual berthing fees and as it happens I have already done my lift out and used a different marina for this anyway (combination of a 5 month wait at MDL Cobbs Quay for time ashore for maintenance, and the other marina having space immediately and being cheaper for this anyway). So they haven't lost anything from me.

Berthing fees will significantly dwarf all other income from berth holders, so any loss in ancillaries will not be 'that' significant. Fuel is charged at cost by MDL so we are told so no loss of profit there, and I am still using electricity, which are my only other real costs apart from spending with on site tenants.

So, for me anyway, MDL isn't losing out on a penny of income this year but they are achieving operating cost savings at a time when I cannot use their facilities in possibly 1 or 2 (hopefully not 3 or 4) of the only months that I would be using them regularly. A 50% discount whilst in lockdown is the fair thing in my mind - and like D&R are proposing, I am happy to have this as a 'credit' rather than a repayment or cash reduction, so ultimately it gets 'spent' with them (either on marina services or against next years berthing fees) - this way it keeps all customer goodwill intact whilst still maintaining their cash position at this time.

And just had an update e-mail from Michael Glanville, the MD of MDL - made me chuckle that he describes them as a 'family owned business'. Whilst that may be technically correct, it is owned by a Plc (albeit privately owned) that has assets of c£300m including cash of almost £50m. Not quite the 'family owned' business that this image portrays......but anyway, for anyone that hasn't seen it, he states the following:

"Some of you have told us about operators offering 50% off April’s berthing fees for some of their customers, a discount for them held against future services on their account. Some of you have asked individually about any support we can give as you are facing income challenges yourself.

Like all businesses and many of you personally, we await the outcome of Government support, full assistance with rates that has not yet been forthcoming and the job retention scheme is not yet open for applications.

For many of you, April was the start of your berthing season, a new contract year perhaps at a new MDL marina. I want to continue to invest in our marinas, keep our fantastic team employed and be able to provide the comprehensive range of services and benefits that we do today in the future. That is why right now, just 15 days into the season and 15 days into the berthing contract for some, is not the right time to add additional credits on account that you cannot use, or make a gesture now that reduces the enjoyment of our services you might have when the doors open again.

Therefore, I ask that you rest assured of two things: firstly, if you are facing significant difficulties paying your berthing fees and need individual guidance about berthing product options tailored to you and your circumstances, please contact our Sales and Marketing Director, Tim Mayer, on t.mayer@mdlmarinas.co.uk. Tim will call you at a time convenient for you to discuss how we might be able to help."

So that is their stance and with thousands of berth holders they assign poor old Tim to deal with every customer facing difficulties? He could be a busy man.....I'm glad to say that I don't need to make that call as i am fortunate that my business is able to carry on at this time (we are B2B and able to carry on, though not without financial challenge however) so will not need to request this support, but I still think that they are missing the key point here and the effect that it will have on longer term customer goodwill by not making any gesture. Maybe they will in due course.

If not, I will have to look up where is my nearest D&R marina........

It's an interesting one. As others have said it would appear that the marinas have an opportunity to offset their costs through the available gov schemes (as many other businesses are doing). Even without additional funding, their operating costs will be reduced and I would hope, and expect, at least some meaningful gesture to berthholders. The other point worth making is that the longer they hold out before doing something, the more it will look like they have been forced into it, and thus any goodwill will be diluted. D&R will do well at least in the goodwill stakes, MDL and Premier need to catch-up rapidly.......

 

[TwoHooter]

When you say holiday, will you try and recover missed rent at a later date or write it off?

It depends. My attitude towards the young couple with two children who have lost all their income because their business has been shut down by government order at just about the worst time of the year (end of the winter lean period) and are waiting to see what government assistance they will actually get is very different to the national pub company with substantial reserves who have told us in high-handed language that 'You will cease to invoice us for rent or any other sums due under the lease'. The former will probably never be asked to pay the outstanding rent but I will want to open discussions with the pub company in due course.

But that's just me. I do not think marina operators can possibly be expected to differentiate between their customers in that way. How is Tim Mayer supposed to tell the difference between a false sob-story and a customer in genuine financial difficulties? I think the marina operators should make a genuine calculation of the net cost to them of the lockdown including government assistance, be prepared to forego some profit this year (almost everyone is having to do that), and offer either a discount or a credit towards future berthing, because (as I explained above) their customers are not receiving full performance of the services which the marinas are expected to provide.

 

[Blue Sunray]

I agree that an element of this will probably be income deferred rather than lost, but there are some lifts that will not be deferred (for sea trials that simply won't have occurred, for emergency maintanence that isn't required as boats not in use, etc)

Having said that, my lift out cost each year is less than 10% of my annual berthing fees and as it happens I have already done my lift out and used a different marina for this anyway (combination of a 5 month wait at MDL Cobbs Quay for time ashore for maintenance, and the other marina having space immediately and being cheaper for this anyway). So they haven't lost anything from me.

Berthing fees will significantly dwarf all other income from berth holders, so any loss in ancillaries will not be 'that' significant. Fuel is charged at cost by MDL so we are told so no loss of profit there, and I am still using electricity, which are my only other real costs apart from spending with on site tenants.

So, for me anyway, MDL isn't losing out on a penny of income this year but they are achieving operating cost savings at a time when I cannot use their facilities in possibly 1 or 2 (hopefully not 3 or 4) of the only months that I would be using them regularly. A 50% discount whilst in lockdown is the fair thing in my mind - and like D&R are proposing, I am happy to have this as a 'credit' rather than a repayment or cash reduction, so ultimately it gets 'spent' with them (either on marina services or against next years berthing fees) - this way it keeps all customer goodwill intact whilst still maintaining their cash position at this time.

And just had an update e-mail from Michael Glanville, the MD of MDL - made me chuckle that he describes them as a 'family owned business'. Whilst that may be technically correct, it is owned by a Plc (albeit privately owned) that has assets of c£300m including cash of almost £50m. Not quite the 'family owned' business that this image portrays......but anyway, for anyone that hasn't seen it, he states the following:

"Some of you have told us about operators offering 50% off April’s berthing fees for some of their customers, a discount for them held against future services on their account. Some of you have asked individually about any support we can give as you are facing income challenges yourself.

Like all businesses and many of you personally, we await the outcome of Government support, full assistance with rates that has not yet been forthcoming and the job retention scheme is not yet open for applications.

For many of you, April was the start of your berthing season, a new contract year perhaps at a new MDL marina. I want to continue to invest in our marinas, keep our fantastic team employed and be able to provide the comprehensive range of services and benefits that we do today in the future. That is why right now, just 15 days into the season and 15 days into the berthing contract for some, is not the right time to add additional credits on account that you cannot use, or make a gesture now that reduces the enjoyment of our services you might have when the doors open again.

Therefore, I ask that you rest assured of two things: firstly, if you are facing significant difficulties paying your berthing fees and need individual guidance about berthing product options tailored to you and your circumstances, please contact our Sales and Marketing Director, Tim Mayer, on t.mayer@mdlmarinas.co.uk. Tim will call you at a time convenient for you to discuss how we might be able to help."

So that is their stance and with thousands of berth holders they assign poor old Tim to deal with every customer facing difficulties? He could be a busy man.....I'm glad to say that I don't need to make that call as i am fortunate that my business is able to carry on at this time (we are B2B and able to carry on, though not without financial challenge however) so will not need to request this support, but I still think that they are missing the key point here and the effect that it will have on longer term customer goodwill by not making any gesture. Maybe they will in due course.

If not, I will have to look up where is my nearest D&R marina........

Yes I thought that bit about Family owned business was I though a bit off as well (and frankly a little insulting to the intelligence of the reader in its apparent intention to gain sympathy). Ineos could be equally said to be family owned, I'm not sure of the relevance to their financial state.

 

[Scubadoo]

and lets not forget what MDL can do, during the financial crisis in 2009 they reduced their yard services (lift outs etc) by at least 50% (I think it was) and this went on for a several years. They also reduced berthing fees by a small amount for one year instead of their usual annual increase. So it would be nice if MDL could do something similar in the future to help.

 

[Rappey]

Should we also ask for our cars road tax to be reduced, insurance, council tax , membership fees that we may have etc ?

 

[ari]

I agree. Although I am not in a marina I kind of view them in the same light as a restaurant. You are prepared to pay a very high value for your plate not because that is how much the food cost but for a whole host of add-ons. Ambience, experience, service, convenience etc etc. Sure it costs the restaurants more than food itself in rent, salaries etc. But then so are the supermarkets paying rent and salaries. No, it's down to the those extras and if the marinas are not or cannot deliver them they are hard pressed to argue the rates they are charging over and above the harbour duties and where I am that is less than 20% of a marina berth's cost.

If you asked a restaurant to reserve you a table and serve the food onto it even though you're not there, clean it away afterwards and wash your dishes, would you expect a discount for not showing up? If you broke your legs and couldn't use your boat, would you expect a discount or refund from the marina because although your boat is tied up there, you're not enjoying the 'extras' - the 'marinas are not or cannot deliver them'?

No it's not your fault you can't use your boat, but it isn't the marinas either.

I've paid my berthing and my boat sits there basically abandoned, it's extremely frustrating. But I've still got to shoulder the responsibility, it's my boat. I've got to put it somewhere and pay to do so.

If I had a horse but couldn't ride it, I'd still have to feed it.

 

[Blue Sunray]

Should we also ask for our cars road tax to be reduced, insurance, council tax , membership fees that we may have etc ?

Road tax - we have SORN'd a car so yes
Insurance - no because risks are still there; some have gone down, others up
Council tax - why? many of their services are busier than ever
Membership fees - several that I'm aware of (eg National Trust and gyms) have put them on hold ie they will be extended by the period of the lockdown.

Next question?

 

[Seastoke]

Should we also ask for our cars road tax to be reduced, insurance, council tax , membership fees that we may have etc ?

Are you saying there should be know reduction

 

[Seastoke]

Should we also ask for our cars road tax to be reduced, insurance, council tax , membership fees that we may have etc ?

I don’t expect the marina to be better off , ie low wage bill Low electric and gas bill free rates .

 

[bbriansim]

I suspect it is, which (depending of course when it happens) would indicate that a lot of those lifts are going to happen anyway, the income is thus deferred rather than lost. Visitor fees will undoubtedly be down but if we are able to get on the water by June/July the peak season will still be there and I suspect that huge number of people will be staying in the UK who might otherwise have gone overseas.

D&R seem to have shown how to pay the PR game at least, at the end of the day it's a business decision, but I'm certainly reevaluating my options for the end of this year's contract.

10 out of 10 to D&R what a great way to treat customers, I will be voting with my feet to reward them.

 

[Rappey]

Next question?

have you read post 153 ?

So you expect any business to reduce the bill to a customer even though its not their fault? Would you feel the same if it was your business?

Are you saying there should be know reduction

Im not saying anything as i was asking a question ?

 

[Blue Sunray]

have you read post 153 ?

Yes (but not the bit from BruceK as he's on ignore)

So you expect any business to reduce the bill to a customer even though its not their fault? Would you feel the same if it was your business?

Yes, if their outgoings have been reduced and/or they are receiving taxpayer support/relief whilst failing to provide the contracted service and yes. As I've said before it's a commercial decision and it looks very much like D&R are playing a blinder here whilst MDL are making an utter pig's ear of it. Premier is a bit different due to their ownership.

I'm guessing that you don't own a (successful) business that has innovative competitors and/or a need for repeat business.

Next question?

 

[chrisharris]

have you read post 153 ?

So you expect any business to reduce the bill to a customer even though its not their fault? Would you feel the same if it was your business?

Im not saying anything as i was asking a question ?

I don't think we should look at this as anyone's fault; that's missing the point. Ultimately it would be very difficult/impossible to show that the marinas were not meeting their strict contractual obligations to their customers (although there is a somewhat tenuous link between gov advice and their decision to completely close to boat owners). The point is that the current situation is impacting almost everyone, including the majority of their customers, it's a matter of being seen to be supportive rather than simply thinking about maintaining their bottom line. I would not like to guess the medium to longer term (financial) impacts of Covid, but it would not be rocket science to guess that disposable income will be stretched more than before, and thus there will be an ongoing effect on leisure boating, which 'may' reduce the customer base for marinas. If I was a senior in a marina business I would be thinking beyond this F/Y (given they are cash rich and not immediately impacted, and have the ability to seek gov business support etc...,)