Mainsheet at/near the helm??

[Airscrew]

My requirements may not suit everybody here, but I am looking for a decent family CRUISING yacht with

a) a mainsheet NOT on the coachroof
b) NOT a race yacht with a large traveller
c) a twin/german system with 2 sheets back to helm winches would be nice ofcourse, but too expensive as on newer yachts only)
d) wheel steering (please just accept it...)
and also
e) jib/genoa winches in reach of the helm.
EDIT:
These features relate only to the mainsheet / winch(es) access.
An autohelm is a given with a wheel.

You can surmise that single/short hand is more of a priority than some other features.
EDIT:
No kids on board, either me alone, or with me or partner otherwise occupied(!)

To me, this sounds reasonable, but I dont see many models of yacht that do this for under 80ish k.
It looks like I dont meet the perceived needs of the majority of buyers, according to the manufacturers..

So perhaps:

Dehler 34/35
Elan 333
Maxi 1000
...nice, but newer would be better (for the crew!!)
so more recently:-
Bavaria cruiser 32/33
and???

but struggling to find other alternatives...

At the risk of 'yet another...', I would appreciate suggestions for models that I havent found/considered.

Thanks.

 

[johnalison]

I entirely agree. Sadly, my HR 34 is not yet for sale.

 

[Tranona]

When looking with the same requirements and similar budget, I bought a new Bavaria 33 2015. You need the aft mounted winches which were an addition to meet you e. don't think there is anything else easily available. My short list was HR 310, Hanse 325, Bene 311, Jenneau 32i. Most restrictive feature on this size boat is clearance round the wheel and at that time there were no twin wheels. The coachroof mainsheet can be resolved by leading the tail back down the side coaming. I did this on my previous Bav 37. Not perfect, but generally speaking on older boats like that the mainsail is smaller and not so critical. The 33 arrangement on the end of the table is not perfect because it does not have a traveller but works OK.

I had the boat for 6 seasons and sailed up and down the coast on my own. Bow thruster, electric windlass, in mast furling and cruising chute on a furler. Excellent autopilot although a bit noisy as the motor is directly under the pedestal. Beautifully made in a machine like manner. Everything fitted perfectly, nothing of any consequence went wrong and when I sold it was like a new boat.. I got £90k for it 2 years ago and they still change hands around that price.

BTW the first 3 on your list are all nice, particularly the Elan, but bit of a handful single handed compared with the 4 I had on my short list. The HR310 was my first choice but I could justify spending that kind of money!

Edit - Agree the HR 34 should be on your list - much older but in similar price bracket and unlike many of the up market brands of this size you stand a chance of actually finding one for sale.

 

[B27]

There are many yachts where you can handle the helm, mainsheet and the jib winches, if you have a big wheel or twin wheels and can steer sat alongside the wheel, rather than being behind it like you are driving a bus.

It's not always a binary thing, some people sailing some boats in some conditions may need to continuously have hold of the main, others may just want to make occasional adjustments without leaving the helm or engaing the autopilot. Do you want to ease sheets for gusts or will you reef to suit the biggest gust?

If the main is on a coachroof track, then it might be feasible to lead it back to a swivel jammer on the cockpit floor in front of the wheel?

There's also a spectrum from sailing singlehanded to needing crew.
In the middle somewhere is being able to sail with one on deck while others are below.
In fact sailing two up, it is sometimes when the other person is using the stove or whatever that it's most important to use the sheet to keep the boat fairly level!

To me, being able to play the main while helming is an absolute must. There's more choice with a tiller.
Most of the wheel steering boats which spring to mind are older cruiser-racers. Sigma 38 and all that.

 

[Refueler]

Its one of my bug bears with many yachts today and my latest C38 falls into the trap as well .... but I have tiller with extendable arm that slides out - so I am able to be sited next to winches and even reach coachroof stoppers.

But my biggest complaint is this tendency to have traveller across companionway ... I've seen a few near misses of fingers with them ... my C38 has it ... but I am determined to make sure stop locks are engaged all times ... except when tacking of course.

 

[dunedin]

My requirements may not suit everybody here, but I am looking for a decent family CRUISING yacht with

a) a mainsheet NOT on the coachroof
b) NOT a race yacht with a large traveller
c) not a twin/german system with 2 sheets back to helm winches (yes, nice, but too expensive / newer yachts only)
d) wheel steering (please just accept it...)
and also
e) jib/genoa winches in reach of the helm.

You can surmise that single/short hand is more of a priority than some other features.

To me, this sounds reasonable, but I dont see many models of yacht that do this for under 80ish k.
It looks like I dont meet the perceived needs of the majority of buyers, according to the manufacturers..

So perhaps:

Dehler 34/35
Elan 333
Maxi 1000
...nice, but newer would be better (for the crew!!)
so more recently:-
Bavaria cruiser 32/33
and???

but struggling to find other alternatives...

At the risk of 'yet another...', I would appreciate suggestions for models that I havent found/considered.

Thanks.

If you are going to do significant solo / short handed sailing, I would respectfully suggest you might have your priorities in the wrong order.
First and foremost, having now done a lot of miles solo, I would put a bullet proof autopilot that is ready to switch on and off in an instant as no 1 priority. This may lead you to perhaps needing to reconsider tiller vs wheel, as tiller pilots are a major compromise - and wheel pilots only marginally better.
With instant access to autopilot instant access to genoa winches is not essential - as use autopilot when winching in.
I agree that mainsheet control on the coachroof is BAD - but as others have said can be resolved and re-routed. By contrast, having a traveller ahead of the sprayhood can be worthwhile and much safer when got (young?) crew on board.
And if a boat comes with German mainsheet don’t knock it- can be brilliant combined with mainsheet out of cockpit for short handed sailing.
Also, you haven’t mentioned but all controls led back to the cockpit would also be a priority for solo sailing - which may rule out some older marques/models.
Happy boat hunting

 

[johnalison]

I don’t regard using the autopilot in order to use the winches as desirable, but merely a back-up. Although I don’t have one, a quadrant-operated autopilot can be fitted to tiller boats such as mine, but in practice I generally find the boat steady enough just to leave the helm alone for the time it takes the adjust the jib.

I have been on boats with awkward mainsheet tracks but on the whole people seem to get used to what they have. We had one across the companionway on our Sadler 29 and it was seldom a problem. If anything, the sheet could be something to hang on to when moving around close-hauled.

 

[Refueler]

I second the Autopilot ... its a good friend - I would not be without it ....

I like a wheel - but only on large enough boats where it doesn't cramp the cockpit. Pal of mine - his 31 is an absolute pain to be in cockpit because of his wheel ... but my 38 with tiller ? Hinged up out of way - 6 people are easily sat down and comfortable for dinner in port.
The Tillerpilot sits on a tiller pin - so just knock it off the pin if emergency and boats in your hand again ...

Plus of course tiller gives far better 'feel' when sailing ...

 

[Concerto]

My brother used to have a Contest 35 and this one might suit.

https://uk.boats.com/sailing-boats/1990-contest-36s-8981609/

 

[Chris CJ]

When looking with the same requirements and similar budget, I bought a new Bavaria 33 2015. You need the aft mounted winches which were an addition to meet you e. don't think there is anything else easily available. My short list was HR 310, Hanse 325, Bene 311, Jenneau 32i. Most restrictive feature on this size boat is clearance round the wheel and at that time there were no twin wheels. The coachroof mainsheet can be resolved by leading the tail back down the side coaming. I did this on my previous Bav 37. Not perfect, but generally speaking on older boats like that the mainsail is smaller and not so critical. The 33 arrangement on the end of the table is not perfect because it does not have a traveller but works OK.

I had the boat for 6 seasons and sailed up and down the coast on my own. Bow thruster, electric windlass, in mast furling and cruising chute on a furler. Excellent autopilot although a bit noisy as the motor is directly under the pedestal. Beautifully made in a machine like manner. Everything fitted perfectly, nothing of any consequence went wrong and when I sold it was like a new boat.. I got £90k for it 2 years ago and they still change hands around that price.

BTW the first 3 on your list are all nice, particularly the Elan, but bit of a handful single handed compared with the 4 I had on my short list. The HR310 was my first choice but I could justify spending that kind of money!

Edit - Agree the HR 34 should be on your list - much older but in similar price bracket and unlike many of the up market brands of this size you stand a chance of actually finding one for sale.

There’s HR 34 on apollo duck in Weymouth

 

[RupertW]

I’m with the autopilot people. We simply wouldn’t do the sailing we do as a couple without a reliable one on whenever outside harbour. That means the person on deck can play with sheets, some reefing, vang, traveller (forward of the hatch) etc to concentrate on good sailing. It would never win races but good average times can be maintained without calling up the person sleeping.

 

[flaming]

My requirements may not suit everybody here, but I am looking for a decent family CRUISING yacht with

a) a mainsheet NOT on the coachroof
b) NOT a race yacht with a large traveller
c) not a twin/german system with 2 sheets back to helm winches (yes, nice, but too expensive / newer yachts only)
d) wheel steering (please just accept it...)
and also
e) jib/genoa winches in reach of the helm.

You can surmise that single/short hand is more of a priority than some other features.

To me, this sounds reasonable, but I dont see many models of yacht that do this for under 80ish k.
It looks like I dont meet the perceived needs of the majority of buyers, according to the manufacturers..

So perhaps:

Dehler 34/35
Elan 333
Maxi 1000
...nice, but newer would be better (for the crew!!)
so more recently:-
Bavaria cruiser 32/33
and???

but struggling to find other alternatives...

At the risk of 'yet another...', I would appreciate suggestions for models that I havent found/considered.

Thanks.

You’ve just described the Dufour 34.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

The OP stipulated a "family" cruising yacht ... I must admit, to me, family means boom, traveller, and main sheet out of the cockpit. Sailed for years with a traveller on the coachroof and a boom well out of the way above the sprayhood and bimini - and if the weather got interesting, the crew would bugger off below decks leaving me to do the sailing. Like many here say - a good autopilot is a must IMO. You just adapt to the boat you have - it's not a dinghy where you have the tiller in one hand and the main and jib sheets in the other, using your teeth as a jammer for the sheet not currently being tweaked ... and reefing for the biggest gusts makes the life of everyone on board more comfortable. Perhaps look at the boat as a whole rather than concentrating on a few details of the sail controls? Comfort, comfort, and then more comfort is what's needed on a family boat

 

[B27]

The OP stipulated a "family" cruising yacht ... I must admit, to me, family means boom, traveller, and main sheet out of the cockpit. Sailed for years with a traveller on the coachroof and a boom well out of the way above the sprayhood and bimini - and if the weather got interesting, the crew would bugger off below decks leaving me to do the sailing. Like many here say - a good autopilot is a must IMO. You just adapt to the boat you have - it's not a dinghy where you have the tiller in one hand and the main and jib sheets in the other, using your teeth as a jammer for the sheet not currently being tweaked ... and reefing for the biggest gusts makes the life of everyone on board more comfortable. Perhaps look at the boat as a whole rather than concentrating on a few details of the sail controls? Comfort, comfort, and then more comfort is what's needed on a family boat

Progress is also needed on a family boat.
Unless you can afford a big fast heavy boat, then control of the mainsheet is important.

Around here, the most 'comfortable' sailing is often when the wind is off the land. Flat sea. That comes with puffs and wind funneling down the valleys.

You want to be able to ease the main.
If you want your family to have confidence in you and your boat, you need to be seen to be controlling it fully.
The younger members of the family may actually want to sail the boat.

 

[Koeketiene]

My requirements may not suit everybody here, but I am looking for a decent family CRUISING yacht with

a) a mainsheet NOT on the coachroof
b) NOT a race yacht with a large traveller
c) not a twin/german system with 2 sheets back to helm winches (yes, nice, but too expensive / newer yachts only)
d) wheel steering (please just accept it...)
and also
e) jib/genoa winches in reach of the helm.

You can surmise that single/short hand is more of a priority than some other features.

I sail singlehanded most of the time and I had specified all but on of your requirements when I was looking for a boat a few years back.
I wanted tiller steering rather than wheel steering.
Why would you put a barrier between yourself and all the things you want to be able to reach easily?

Good luck in your search.

 

[Tranona]

Progress is also needed on a family boat.
Unless you can afford a big fast heavy boat, then control of the mainsheet is important.

Around here, the most 'comfortable' sailing is often when the wind is off the land. Flat sea. That comes with puffs and wind funneling down the valleys.

You want to be able to ease the main.
If you want your family to have confidence in you and your boat, you need to be seen to be controlling it fully.
The younger members of the family may actually want to sail the boat.

The requirement was for a boat that is easy to single-hand as this will be most of the use. You do not need a big heavy boat to avoid hanging onto the main sheet all the time. I don't know if you have sailed a modern boat of this size (32-35') but most of the "family" type cruisers have the mainsheet on the coachroof because it is safe and in normal use does not require constant attention. Most of them are headsail driven and easy furling plus winches accessible from the wheel are more important for single handed sail control. These boats are generally fairly docile if you remember to reduce sail early and most have good gear for reefing. With experience you come to an accommodation with them if sailing on your own. I had a Bavaria 37 for 15 years and had no problems single handing except parking it without a bow thruster and short tacking with the 135% genoa. If I had kept the boat I would have replaced the sail with a high clew 115% as many other owners have. The big genoa was fine in the Med with lots of light wind sailing.

I agree with post 13 - while the details are important you need to look at the overall design of the boat - details can often be improved but fundamentals can't be changed. The key thing to me with the more recent boats such as those on my 2015 short list is the move away from headsail dominated sailplans to more 50/50 or even small self tacking foresails. My Bav 33 had a 106% jib and a furling mainsail, roughly equal size. The SA/Disp is around 15 on the lower end of modern cruising boats, but slippery hull and well balanced rudder meant it performed well in lighter airs and tacked like a dinghy. Furling sails mean it is easy to adjust sail area to conditions and despite being the same displacement and waterline length as the 37 was far easier to sail single handed.

Once you understand the difference in basic characteristics you can look at the details of how best to lay out the controls. This for me was the main difference between what I chose and its competitors. Wider cockpit and smaller wheel meant no climbing on benches to go to the coachroof controls. Sheet winches accessible from behind the wheel , good seating to the rear and side of the wheel, mainsheet in front of the wheel. All instruments engine controls and bow thruster in reach from behind the wheel. In other words ergonomically well designed. The only thing I changed was to do away with the standard furling line jammer and line fairleads and replace with Harken fairleads plus as jamming block within reach of the wheel. Similar arrangement the other side for the furling lines for the cruising chute.

As many have said a good autopilot is arguably the most important bit of gear, not just on passage but particularly at the beginning and end when setting sail or putting it all away and getting the fenders/warps out. Modern engines are good for running at low revs to keep enough way on with the AP holding the course making the whole process drama free..

Having now through choice gone back to a smaller tiller steered old style boat I appreciate how much better modern boats are. Ballet dancing skills needed to control the engine with your foot, tiller with your bum mainsheet behind, sheet winches just out of reach and tiller pilot needing to be clipped on after stretching aft over the mainsheet horse to reach it. While one can work away at improving some of the details the basics can't be changed.

 

[geem]

I sail singlehanded most of the time and I had specified all but on of your requirements when I was looking for a boat a few years back.
I wanted tiller steering rather than wheel steering.
Why would you put a barrier between yourself and all the things you want to be able to reach easily?

Good luck in your search.

We have mainsheet and genoa winches all accessible from the wheel. When we sail, it is invariably on the below decks autopilot. The amount of steering we do is mainly limited to just before we drop anchor and as we are lifting thr anchor. Within 5 mins, the autopilot is on.
In front of the wheel is the passenger space. No sail controls whatsoever. It keeps the cockpit clear of clutter.
When I see people mentioning about having the mainsheet in their hands ready to dump for the gusts it makes me realise what a huge variation there is between yachts. Dumping the main is not something we often do. We don't round up, we just lean over more and track straight on. The behaviour of boats can be so different

 

[KompetentKrew]

I have a 40' boat with a german mainsheet and winches are not required to operate it. I guess the number of blocks are a factor - LMK if you want more details.

I like german sheeting very much, but I'm dubious whether it's actually necessary to have the mainsheet always to hand, since Otto is always available to take the helm.

 

[Refueler]

I’m with the autopilot people. We simply wouldn’t do the sailing we do as a couple without a reliable one on whenever outside harbour. That means the person on deck can play with sheets, some reefing, vang, traveller (forward of the hatch) etc to concentrate on good sailing. It would never win races but good average times can be maintained without calling up the person sleeping.

My old trusty AH1000 and AH800 have cable remotes ..... so I can venture on deck and still have control of the AH ....

Later have wireless of course.

 

[ashtead]

It would seem to me a self tacking headsail and a German main system as said to winches on either side is simplest solution. The headsail looks after itself -once unfurled etc. ideally electric winches mean no real hassle on easing /sheeting main but personal choice but the electric winches can also hoist main, dinghy etc. whether such a set up exists on a boat in size range I don’t know but I guess you can convert say a 36ish Hanse model which would come with self tacker (brand number designations are confusing as to real length but indicative) I have seen a small Hanse 325 with a retro bowthruster as well so I guess power winches also a possibility . Far simpler than a mainsheet on an older Bav34 even with a crew. We have a 41ac moody now and the sailing bit is far more relaxing than the former Bav 34 .