Mainsheet at/near the helm??

[Airscrew]

Quite the muddled list. Family yacht but without a family and plans to exclude the only family on board from the sailing. Cruising yacht, but specified like a racer needing quick access to everything from the helm.
I don't necessarily like my main sheet on the coachroof, but when cruising I don't change the mainsheet very often. In fact, I sailed Solent to Alderney without adjusting it once, and that's pretty typical of cruising, we're not constantly tacking or trimming we just sail along for hours at a time and tacks might be 50 miles wide. When we're in close to the anchorage/marina it makes no difference either as it's not like I'm single handedly tacking up to the beach amongst anchored boats, I drop sails and start the engine outside of the anchorage.
If you're single handing there is zero chance of using a winch while also wheel steering, so the A/P will be in charge and it makes no difference whether the winch is by the wheel or at the bows, you're not steering anyway!
There's a lot to be said for having winches under the dry sprayhood in the warm and out of the wind when it's 2am and you can't be arsed to clip on just to go to the stern and adjust the mainsheet!

I'd have a good think about realistic usage of the boat and re-write the list.

Lusty, I appreciate your thoughts, but just because my thoughts dont align with yours, doesnt make them muddled.
As others have figured, a 'family style' boat (space, comfort, shower, maybe heating) does not mean the family are all aboard.

Infact the suggestions of HR34, Dufour34, Hanse325 are good examples and suggestions.

I see you sail around the solent/channel, as do I.
There have been more than a few times when fully reefed, that we then have had excessive gusts.
I dont want any 'crew' to see the rail under water, or get rounded up. I'm cruising not racing.
And often there may not be sea-room to allow a quick depower by luffing a little.
So yes, on such occasions, I want the option to ease the main from the helm.

 

[dolabriform]

There’s a reason we have different terms for boats. Just because families do cruise on them doesn’t make them a family cruiser. I’ve cruised in my friends carbon race yacht. We had a great time but it was an enormous compromise. If you want something designed to sail well don’t buy something designed for comfort. As I said, the OP needs a think about what their priorities are and make a list accordingly. Family cruisers prioritise accommodation, not much call for that with two on board, and it’s the reason the winches and clutches are where they are.

Have you been on an Elan??

Totally kitted out as a family cruiser, and fast !

 

[flaming]

There’s a reason we have different terms for boats. Just because families do cruise on them doesn’t make them a family cruiser. I’ve cruised in my friends carbon race yacht. We had a great time but it was an enormous compromise. If you want something designed to sail well don’t buy something designed for comfort. As I said, the OP needs a think about what their priorities are and make a list accordingly. Family cruisers prioritise accommodation, not much call for that with two on board, and it’s the reason the winches and clutches are where they are.

The OP provided a list of features they like. Then listed boats which have them, all of which are of a type that offers good accommodation and decent performance, and asked for more options like this. That's not muddled thinking, that's being very clear in what they want. It seems to be the fact that they've used the term "family cruiser" and you for some reason don't think those boats are that makes you think this is muddled thinking.

I'd say it was more a muddled definition of what you think a "family cruiser" is!

 

[flaming]

Lusty, I appreciate your thoughts, but just because my thoughts dont align with yours, doesnt make them muddled.
As others have figured, a 'family style' boat (space, comfort, shower, maybe heating) does not mean the family are all aboard.

Infact the suggestions of HR34, Dufour34, Hanse325 are good examples and suggestions.

I see you sail around the solent/channel, as do I.
There have been more than a few times when fully reefed, that we then have had excessive gusts.
I dont want any 'crew' to see the rail under water, or get rounded up. I'm cruising not racing.
And often there may not be sea-room to allow a quick depower by luffing a little.
So yes, on such occasions, I want the option to ease the main from the helm.

Another, slightly sportier, option might be the Elan 320 /E3. Don't be fooled by thinking it looks like a race yacht, it's definitely a cruising boat. And with a chine and twin rudders it will track far better than a lot of the options when pressed.

 

[Airscrew]

A First is a racer/cruiser it’s not a family cruiser at all.

In my view, a 34.7 by example is absolutely a (fast) cruiser on which I could take just me, or a couple of boys, or partner, or the family. I am putting my requirements ahead of the 'family', but not excluding them from ever coming on a trip.

A 34.7 fits the bill, and there is a nice one in Gosport right now..

 

[flaming]

A 34.7 is absolutely a fast cruiser on which I could take just me, or a couple of boys, or partner, or the family. I am putting my requirements ahead of the 'family', but not excluding them from ever coming on a trip.

A 34.7 fits the bill, and there is a nice one in Gosport right now..

Marmite interior with the heads in the bow, and make sure it's had the rudder upgrade.

 

[Airscrew]

Ah. Not for us. Thanks.

 

[Tranona]

You pull in the sheet one handed while turning the wheel and letting the other sheet off on the other side of the boat? Sounds impressive, but is needlessly frantic while cruising

Not at all. Did it all the time with my Bavaria. Tacked up and down Poole Harbour like a dinghy. The steering is very high geared and the boat directionally stable in that it does not fly all over the place when tacking. Handle in each winch permanently. Get the new sheet on the winch before tacking, wheel over, cast of old sheet , pull in new, As described earlier 106% genoa so if you are quick winching is minimal.

These are the sort of details you need to take into account when choosing the boat - easy handled rig and ergonomic cockpit layout.

 

[Airscrew]

Marmite interior with the heads in the bow, and make sure it's had the rudder upgrade.

Maybe I should spot you a few coffees / beers if I look at boats around the Hamble

 

[Airscrew]

Not at all. Did it all the time with my Bavaria. Tacked up and down Poole Harbour like a dinghy. The steering is very high geared and the boat directionally stable in that it does not fly all over the place when tacking. Handle in each winch permanently. Get the new sheet on the winch before tacking, wheel over, cast of old sheet , pull in new, As described earlier 106% genoa so if you are quick winching is minimal.

These are the sort of details you need to take into account when choosing the boat - easy handled rig and ergonomic cockpit layout.

I agree, Tranona. I was trained to do this on my very first Comp Crew, on the Solent. Ready on the active, 2 turns on the lazy, turn the wheel, flick off, sheet on, centre the wheel, lean forward and lock into the tailer. Easier with smaller headsail, but I can do that with our genoa and tiller on the Westerly...

 

[michael_w]

Dehler 35 CWS. Lean over the wheel for the mainsheet. Push button primaries, Points like a tourist. Aft head, Non overlapping jib, Below decks pilot, Mine might be for sale soon.

 

[Tranona]

I agree, Tranona. I was trained to do this on my very first Comp Crew, on the Solent. Ready on the active, 2 turns on the lazy, turn the wheel, flick off, sheet on, centre the wheel, lean forward and lock into the tailer. Easier with smaller headsail, but I can do that with our genoa and tiller on the Westerly...

Its a big jump up from a Centaur (I assume that is what you have) to an 11m modern boat. In many ways a lot easier because they are usually more stable and fewer things to bang yourself against. On the other hand you have a lot more power and weight under your control (or not!)

As I said earlier I have just gone back to an old style tiller steered boat with a cockpit and layout very similar to a Centaur and find it much less friendly than the Bavaria. Gradually working through ways of making it easier to handle but obviously constrained by the basic layout that can't be altered. I try to go through a process of identifying the barriers and looking for workable solutions. One of the successes so far is with raising and dropping the mainsail having come from 20 years of in mast. The halyard is still at the mast and at first I found the slides hard work even though new and a new sail. Fitted Tides Marine sail track and problem has gone away and I am now even comfortable working at the mast pending fitting the hardware to take the lines back to the cockpit. This is part of what makes owning a boat fun - making it work for you. However makes sense to try and get the basics right when you buy.

 

[johnalison]

Not at all. Did it all the time with my Bavaria. Tacked up and down Poole Harbour like a dinghy. The steering is very high geared and the boat directionally stable in that it does not fly all over the place when tacking. Handle in each winch permanently. Get the new sheet on the winch before tacking, wheel over, cast of old sheet , pull in new, As described earlier 106% genoa so if you are quick winching is minimal.

These are the sort of details you need to take into account when choosing the boat - easy handled rig and ergonomic cockpit layout.

Even easier with a tiller. You can stand astride the helm and steer the boat through the wind while managing the stringy bits.

 

[Tranona]

Even easier with a tiller. You can stand astride the helm and steer the boat through the wind while managing the stringy bits.

I don't find that the case with my current tiller steered boat, maybe because there is only a short length (of the 5'+!) protruding into the cockpit - and I find my bum is nowhere near as effective at steering as my hands - just the same as I find my foot is not as good at operating the engine control (apart from tending to fall over when on one leg and steering with my bum while also operating the bow thruster with my right hand!)

Seriously my wheel steered Bavaria was far easier to control in just about all situations than any tiller steered boat I have sailed. And it had more feel with no play in the linkage, high gearing (1 turn lock to lock) and a well balanced rudder. All courtesy of Bruce Farr's team of designers.

 

[ashtead]

Believe me ,having grown up sailing a centaur in the Solent a modern 34 or indeed larger is indeed much easier than sailing a centaur for longer passages at least and that’s not to disrespect the many qualities of a centaur as an entry boat perhaps nowadays. The sheets /halyards are far easier to use, no mast hauling and reefing handles spinning around the mast , no turning round to sheet in main by brute force, no worries about topping lifts , etc. the areas where a centaur scores is entering chi or other harbours given shallow draft and potentially you can squeeze a centaur in to berths where your beamy 34 won’t fit but of course any Bavaria at least back much like a car compared to a centaur. Clearly though a centaur might be £10k whereas say £40k for your Bav34 and add another £15k I suspect if HR or Malo are your thing so it’s not really a fair comparison. A lot comes down in newer boats to interior layout ,wood colour etc -do you like dark woods or do you prefer blonds,how many cabins, want an inverter ,cockpit tent , self tacker ,folding prop ,crusing chute on board etc. nothing like a trip to say Deacons or hamble point to kick tyres plus charter a couple of boats like a Bene oceanis etc in med. happy hunting

 

[Refueler]

The OP provided a list of features they like. Then listed boats which have them, all of which are of a type that offers good accommodation and decent performance, and asked for more options like this. That's not muddled thinking, that's being very clear in what they want. It seems to be the fact that they've used the term "family cruiser" and you for some reason don't think those boats are that makes you think this is muddled thinking.

I'd say it was more a muddled definition of what you think a "family cruiser" is!

Like most serious people looking for a boat - they have a list of wants and not wants ... they tick of as they look at a boat ...

But of course comes the boat that does not 'tick the boxes' and your brain goes mushy ... you just KNOW this is your boat regardless ....

How do I know ? Couple of months ago - it happened to me ...

I was happy enough to go for a HR Monsun ..... then saw the Conqubin ... took all of two minutes to decide she was to be mine.

 

[Airscrew]

Its a big jump up from a Centaur (I assume that is what you have) to an 11m modern boat. In many ways a lot easier because they are usually more stable and fewer things to bang yourself against. On the other hand you have a lot more power and weight under your control (or not!)

As I said earlier I have just gone back to an old style tiller steered boat with a cockpit and layout very similar to a Centaur and find it much less friendly than the Bavaria. Gradually working through ways of making it easier to handle but obviously constrained by the basic layout that can't be altered. I try to go through a process of identifying the barriers and looking for workable solutions. One of the successes so far is with raising and dropping the mainsail having come from 20 years of in mast. The halyard is still at the mast and at first I found the slides hard work even though new and a new sail. Fitted Tides Marine sail track and problem has gone away and I am now even comfortable working at the mast pending fitting the hardware to take the lines back to the cockpit. This is part of what makes owning a boat fun - making it work for you. However makes sense to try and get the basics right when you buy.

I should point out that we also have a share in a recent Bav40 in Greece, which I can easily sail and tack single handed, so I know what to expect compared to the Centaur. We intend to 'upgrade' the Centaur in the near future, but keep using Bav40 for sunshine hols in Greece.

Infact it was your various posts re your Bav33 that first made me look closely at that layout (also on the slightly earlier Bav32).

And thanks for your thoughts on a Tides Marine track. Will check that out.

 

[Airscrew]

Dehler 35 CWS. Lean over the wheel for the mainsheet. Push button primaries, Points like a tourist. Aft head, Non overlapping jib, Below decks pilot, Mine might be for sale soon.

Thats on my list. I had considered the 35CR, but they are like hens teeth at the moment.

 

[johnalison]

Like most serious people looking for a boat - they have a list of wants and not wants ... they tick of as they look at a boat ...

But of course comes the boat that does not 'tick the boxes' and your brain goes mushy ... you just KNOW this is your boat regardless ....

How do I know ? Couple of months ago - it happened to me ...

I was happy enough to go for a HR Monsun ..... then saw the Conqubin ... took all of two minutes to decide she was to be mine.

Often, choosing a boat is a matter of avoiding features that you can’t live with. The OP has his list, which I broadly agree with, but they won’t be the same as other people’s. We we around Southampton looking for a boat and had got into the position of thinking that we wouldn’t find one we were happy with. The nearest was the Westerly Ocean 33, which was the right size but had gone up in price from the previous year, and had a saloon that was not at all relaxing. As soon as I sat in the cockpit of my HR I found that my hand found the helm and my short legs reached the opposite seat. The only oddity was the lack of a bridge deck, but that has not turned out to be a problem. The boat not only fitted us but was significantly cheaper than the Westerly.

Edited as there was a forum glitch earlier.

 

[Tranona]

I should point out that we also have a share in a recent Bav40 in Greece, which I can easily sail and tack single handed, so I know what to expect compared to the Centaur. We intend to 'upgrade' the Centaur in the near future, but keep using Bav40 for sunshine hols in Greece.

Infact it was your various posts re your Bav33 that first made me look closely at that layout (also on the slightly earlier Bav32).

And thanks for your thoughts on a Tides Marine track. Will check that out.

Good balance. We had our first Bavaria the 37 in Corfu for 10 years so know the area very well. Also kept an Eventide 26 here in Poole for the summer sailing as too hot and crowded in Corfu for July and August. If we had been able to stay out there I think we would have traded up to a Farr 37 similar to my 33. Yes, the Farr designs are so much easier to handle than the older J&J designs with their big headsails and tendency to round up if overcanvassed.

BTW the Farr 32 is a bit of a dog in comparison to the revised 33 from 2013. The keel and rig are different (not obvious just looking at it) and the coachroof and cockpit are both more attractive and better laid out. Lots of minor improvements to the interior as well. Worth going the extra to get a 33 if you do go down that route.

Good luck with your search - as you say many of the suitable boats are difficult to find on the market so best to get the dithering out of the way first so you can focus on just one or 2 alternatives.