Mainsheet at/near the helm??

[flaming]

We have mainsheet and genoa winches all accessible from the wheel. When we sail, it is invariably on the below decks autopilot. The amount of steering we do is mainly limited to just before we drop anchor and as we are lifting thr anchor. Within 5 mins, the autopilot is on.
In front of the wheel is the passenger space. No sail controls whatsoever. It keeps the cockpit clear of clutter.
When I see people mentioning about having the mainsheet in their hands ready to dump for the gusts it makes me realise what a huge variation there is between yachts. Dumping the main is not something we often do. We don't round up, we just lean over more and track straight on. The behaviour of boats can be so different

Don't forget that size is also a fairly big component to handling and response to gusts etc, not just yacht type. Any boat that is 40+ feet has pretty different handling to a smaller sister of a similar design, just by dint of inertia. I say that having sailed the Dufour 40 and 34 for example. 34, whilst not exactly flighty, was definitely unsettled by smaller gusts than the 40.

That said, in my experience, if you are playing the mainsheet continually in a modern cruising boat to keep it on its feet, you need to have a good long look at how you are sailing. When we're racing we have a full time trimmer and the sheet is rarely stationary for any length of time, and when racing doublehanded the helm has in reach without leaving their seat the mainsheet, fine tune, traveller, backstay and jib sheet.

But when cruising the same boat I wouldn't expect to have to trim the main continuously to keep it on its feet. In cruising mode the main is cleated, the autopilot is driving and I'm facing backwards and reading a book..... If I need to dump the main to keep the boat going straight that's a clue that I either have too much sail up or very bad trim.

 

[dunedin]

Progress is also needed on a family boat.
Unless you can afford a big fast heavy boat, then control of the mainsheet is important.

Around here, the most 'comfortable' sailing is often when the wind is off the land. Flat sea. That comes with puffs and wind funneling down the valleys.

You want to be able to ease the main.
If you want your family to have confidence in you and your boat, you need to be seen to be controlling it fully.
The younger members of the family may actually want to sail the boat.

I agree - and our boat with traveller ahead if the sprayhood and German mainsheet led back to helm on both sides us perfect for both cockpit safety and easy mainsheet adjustment

 

[dunedin]

When I see people mentioning about having the mainsheet in their hands ready to dump for the gusts it makes me realise what a huge variation there is between yachts. Dumping the main is not something we often do.

I think it depends quote a lot on other factors- like where you sail. Open sea and places with low land probably more stable wind. Where I sail, as another poster said, often flat water due to shelter of islands etc, but wind has lulls when need full sail and then gusts down off the hills, perhaps much different angle. Need to adjust main to make safe progress.
Also I busy waters if need to bear off sharply - to avoid pot buoy or other boat when previous plzn needs to change, able to dump main to bear away faster helps.

 

[Boathook]

My idea of a family boat must have a autohelm ready to use and the mainsheet not in the cockpit. When standing in the cockpit the boom must be clear of my head.

I haven't got a family but my 9m Catalac sorts of fits this.

Doing quite a bit of single handed sailing over the last few years I even use the autohelm in harbours whilst I clear up warps, etc.

 

[dolabriform]

My vote is for the Elan.

I have an Elan 36 which I sail with both the family and single handed, and the layout is great.

Yes, the autopilot is invaluable, but what if there is a problem with it? I can sail the boat happily without it and adding a little friction to the wheel with the lock allows me to carry out any maneuvers slowly.

When the sails are balanced, she is quite happy without the autopilot on. I knew she was good but I only found out how good by going below to make a cuppa, coming up, deciding to adjust the course a few minutes later only to find I hadn't engaged the AP !

 

[Airscrew]

You’ve just described the Dufour 34.

Yep. I looked at the one at Hamble point (at MSP) last weekend - performance model. Very good set up. I just forgot to type it....
It was that boat that triggered me to ask for ideas for other / similar models.

Did you ever sail/race a Dufour??

 

[flaming]

Yep. I looked at the one at Hamble point (at MSP) last weekend - performance model. Very good set up. I just forgot to type it....
Did you ever sail/race a Dufour??

Yes. Dad had a 40 for about 12 years.

 

[lustyd]

Quite the muddled list. Family yacht but without a family and plans to exclude the only family on board from the sailing. Cruising yacht, but specified like a racer needing quick access to everything from the helm.
I don't necessarily like my main sheet on the coachroof, but when cruising I don't change the mainsheet very often. In fact, I sailed Solent to Alderney without adjusting it once, and that's pretty typical of cruising, we're not constantly tacking or trimming we just sail along for hours at a time and tacks might be 50 miles wide. When we're in close to the anchorage/marina it makes no difference either as it's not like I'm single handedly tacking up to the beach amongst anchored boats, I drop sails and start the engine outside of the anchorage.
If you're single handing there is zero chance of using a winch while also wheel steering, so the A/P will be in charge and it makes no difference whether the winch is by the wheel or at the bows, you're not steering anyway!
There's a lot to be said for having winches under the dry sprayhood in the warm and out of the wind when it's 2am and you can't be arsed to clip on just to go to the stern and adjust the mainsheet!

I'd have a good think about realistic usage of the boat and re-write the list.

 

[flaming]

Quite the muddled list. Family yacht but without a family and plans to exclude the only family on board from the sailing. Cruising yacht, but specified like a racer needing quick access to everything from the helm.
I don't necessarily like my main sheet on the coachroof, but when cruising I don't change the mainsheet very often. In fact, I sailed Solent to Alderney without adjusting it once, and that's pretty typical of cruising, we're not constantly tacking or trimming we just sail along for hours at a time and tacks might be 50 miles wide. When we're in close to the anchorage/marina it makes no difference either as it's not like I'm single handedly tacking up to the beach amongst anchored boats, I drop sails and start the engine outside of the anchorage.
If you're single handing there is zero chance of using a winch while also wheel steering, so the A/P will be in charge and it makes no difference whether the winch is by the wheel or at the bows, you're not steering anyway!
There's a lot to be said for having winches under the dry sprayhood in the warm and out of the wind when it's 2am and you can't be arsed to clip on just to go to the stern and adjust the mainsheet!

I'd have a good think about realistic usage of the boat and re-write the list.

I didn't think the list was all that muddled. Clearly the OP is looking for a cruising yacht, not a race boat with minimal interior, but also wants one that is relatively modern and rewarding to sail and well set up for single/short handed sailing. The winch by wheel thing, no I'd completely disagree there... My dad had a Dufour 40, which had the genoa winches right by the wheel. I spent many happy hours helming and tweaking sheets from behind the wheel without engaging the autopilot whilst leaving the forward part of the cockpit free for those in my family who had zero interest in the sailing part of the trip.
If you have a "mixed enthusiasm" crew this is a fantastic setup. I, and dad, could tweak away to our hearts content whilst the more "passenger" part of the crew dozed or read without constantly being climbed over to get to a sheet etc.
In actual fact most racers DON'T have good access to everything from the helm, but they spread the controls out a bit so that the crew each have their own space to work in. It's no surprise at all to see that the Dufour 40s that were at all seriously campaigned added another set of winches further forward in the boat to give the trimmers more space. The latest tranche of shorthanded specific boats are a different matter of course.

With the OP's use profile the only thing I'd quibble with on his list is the desire for a wheel rather than a tiller, but to be honest most boats of that size / type have come with a wheel or two for a long time now.

 

[Supertramp]

I think your requirements are understandable and I agree with those saying look at an overall package rather than specific features. Cruising to me means sailing with a conservative sail plan, not tweaking all the time, a comfortable motion without spray everywhere and easy access to and from below and from dinghy/marina. Plus a good sprayhood or wheelhouse and a decent size engine for the boat size.

If you found the perfect boat but had to adjust or remedy one feature you would have a great result.

But it really depends what and how you like to sail and how old a boat you would take on.

 

[dolabriform]

If you're single handing there is zero chance of using a winch while also wheel steering, so the A/P will be in charge and it makes no difference whether the winch is by the wheel or at the bows, you're not steering anyway!

Sorry, but I disagree completely. I tack the boat without using the AP, and can reach the wheel to straighten her up whilst grinding in the genoa sheet.

In fact, I sailed Solent to Alderney without adjusting it once, and that's pretty typical of cruising, we're not constantly tacking or trimming we just sail along for hours at a time and tacks might be 50 miles wide.

I've also done that, but I've also had to Gybe single handed and being able to adjust the mainsheet easily is very important to me.

 

[lustyd]

Sorry, but I disagree completely. I tack the boat without using the AP, and can reach the wheel to straighten her up whilst grinding in the genoa sheet.

You pull in the sheet one handed while turning the wheel and letting the other sheet off on the other side of the boat? Sounds impressive, but is needlessly frantic while cruising

 

[dolabriform]

You pull in the sheet one handed while turning the wheel and letting the other sheet off on the other side of the boat? Sounds impressive.

Nope, I apply a bit of friction using the wheel lock, move in front of the wheel and turn the wheel to start the tack, flip the sheet off as the boom travels and pull in the other sheet. If needs be have one hand on the wheel to straighten up whilst the other is winching.

Very easy as the sheet winches are close to the wheel, but far enough away for crew to use them if I have crew.

The main is on a traveller in front of the companion way, also very easy to reach and control without needing winches.

 

[lustyd]

Nope, I apply a bit of friction using the wheel lock

Which was sort of what I was saying.

I didn't think the list was all that muddled.

I meant from the perspective that they were not describing a family boat, nor requirements for cruising yet were asking for both while describing neither.

 

[flaming]

I meant from the perspective that they were not describing a family boat, nor requirements for cruising yet were asking for both while describing neither.

They were not describing YOUR requirements for cruising, or YOUR definition of a family boat. They were describing THEIR requirements for cruising and family boat.

That's a very important distinction to understand, especially when someone comes to the forum who quite clearly knows what they want out of a boat, given they have specified which features they want / can tolerate and which they definitely do not want.
Why they want those things is a matter for them, suggesting boats that have them is what was asked....

 

[lustyd]

They were not describing YOUR requirements for cruising, or YOUR definition of a family boat. They were describing THEIR requirements for cruising and family boat.

That's a very important distinction to understand, especially when someone comes to the forum who quite clearly knows what they want out of a boat, given they have specified which features they want / can tolerate and which they definitely do not want.
Why they want those things is a matter for them, suggesting boats that have them is what was asked....

Lol and yet it was a very confused list. They have no family and won’t be bringing one sailing so family cruiser is clearly not what they’re after. When people ask for confused things they will get questions in return.
A First would meet a lot of the spec well but isn’t a family cruiser so hard to say what would suit.

 

[flaming]

A First would meet a lot of the spec well but isn’t a family cruiser so hard to say what would suit.

A first absolutely is a family cruiser! Just a fast one. That's exactly what I mean, you're confusing your definition of family cruising with what the OP has actually asked.

 

[lustyd]

A first absolutely is a family cruiser! Just a fast one. That's exactly what I mean, you're confusing your definition of family cruising with what the OP has actually asked.

A First is a racer/cruiser it’s not a family cruiser at all.

 

[flaming]

A First is a racer/cruiser it’s not a family cruiser at all.

Well well.... Who knew that all those families happily cruising in first type boats were doing it all wrong!

I mean, what absolute dribble. Of course a first can be a family cruiser. Beneteau have sold hundreds of them for exactly that purpose! So have POGO, JPK, Dufour, Dehler, Grand Solei, Elan... etc etc. All of which have been both raced relatively seriously and cruised with young kids on board.

It might not fit YOUR definition of family cruiser, but then - see post 35...

 

[lustyd]

There’s a reason we have different terms for boats. Just because families do cruise on them doesn’t make them a family cruiser. I’ve cruised in my friends carbon race yacht. We had a great time but it was an enormous compromise. If you want something designed to sail well don’t buy something designed for comfort. As I said, the OP needs a think about what their priorities are and make a list accordingly. Family cruisers prioritise accommodation, not much call for that with two on board, and it’s the reason the winches and clutches are where they are.