Liveaboard and blue water recommendations

[Tranona]

OK .... here's my take on the what makes a blue water cruiser

What the majority of "blue water sailors" do is just live on their boats and enjoy anchorages, harbours, and coastal cruising - and when they've exhausted the places to visit, or simply got bored, then they prep the boat for a passage, sort out their provisions, look for a suitable weather window and knuckle down to spending weeks at sea to get to the next interesting destination where they go back to coastal cruising again. I would certainly see this as my preferred form of "blue water cruising" simply because spending weeks at sea is boring, repetitive, and tiring - with an occasional bit of adrenaline/angst thrown in for good measure.

There are various numbers knocking about as to the ratio of time spent actually ocean sailing compared to coastal cruising, and it is always very heavily biased towards coastal cruising - unless your name is Moitessier, and mine isn't.

I am planning my retirement in a few years, and my plan is to up-size from my previous boat (36ft Bav) to something around 42ft and prepare it for long-term liveaboard life. I will start in the eastern Mediterranean and if it works out that way, I may well head further afield, so crossing oceans is on my list of things this next boat needs to be able to do, but not it's primary purpose.
The thing is, pretty much every boat built in the last 20-30 years can, and is, doing this. How suitable they are is simply a matter of opinion and preference.

Because of this, my "blue water cruiser" requirements have nothing to do with "skeg-hung rudders", "heavily built", "good in a seaway", "gentle motion", or any other criteria intended to push the doubting into older more traditionally built vessels.

My criteria, in no particular order ....

Must have space on board for loads of solar, lithium, and another means of generating power like a generator or large alternator/regulator combo specifically for charging lithium as fast as possible - I want to fit all this myself to get it exactly how I want it.

Must have plotter(helm and chart table), bombproof below deck autopilot, wind, speed, depth, and all be NMEA2000 networked so I can monitor everything from tanks to energy flow to engine. Again I will fit all this myself with the exception of the autopilot.

The boat must have a freezer, a fridge, a water maker, a washing machine, an espresso machine, a toaster, a microwave, a thermomix and a galley big enough for two people to work in. The fridge and freezer need to be either drawer or front opening, pet hate is digging through layers of food in a dark box with a puddle at the bottom. I don't mind gas for cooking, but if I can go induction hob and electric oven I will.

The boat must have a good sized head with a separate shower that can be closed off with a shower curtain or screen.

The boat must have at least 3 good sized double cabins and a comfortable chart table. Lee cloths can be retrofitted at little cost, and it's easier to turn a cabin into storage space, than the other way round.

I want to be able to sit up in bed with a cup of coffee and look out of a window, the interior needs to be well lit and well ventilated, and I don't want dark wood everywhere - it has to be somewhere between a traditional mahogany interior and a loft apartment - with no flimsy fittings - basically it's an "is this a nice space" question.

I want a big, well shaded cockpit with seating for 6-8 people in comfort, a bathing platform or sugar scoop with ladder offering easy access to the water for swimming/watersports/getting stuff in and out of the tender. I don't want to have to squeeze past people, rigging, sheets, straps, poles, wheels, or tables to get around the boat. I don't want a cockpit surrounded by an assault course of obstacles.

All sheets should be stowable out of harms way, the mainsheet blocks etc. need to be out of the cockpit, and the boom well above the sprayhood and bimini. Sheets controllable from the helm would be nice, as would plenty of winches and clutches to make swapping lines on winches easy. Electric winches would also be nice.

I want a big, reliable engine and around 7 knots cruising speed - no preference for shaft or saildrive.

I want roller furling everything - main, genoa and code-zero - bonus points if an inner forestay can be fitted, but not essential.

I want a big anchor locker with a sturdy, powerful windlass capable of both rope and chain.

I want midship cleats and stanchion gates.

I want a bow thruster, never had one before and never missed it, but it adds to the maneuvering options. The boat must be easily maneuverable in both ahead and astern, and I don't want the engine control at floor level.

No teak deck, just moulded gelcoat. Teak in the cockpit OK as long as it isn't worn out.

Bilges must be dry, clean and neutral smelling - want to use them as a wine cellar and storage so the only maintenance needs to be the occasional vacuuming out.

Sturdy gangway, outboard crane, solar arch.

Foredeck suitable for sunbathing.

Double anchor roller.

Must not have DIY disasters, random equipment/decorations fixed all over the inside of the boat - screw holes, discoloured veneer, damaged interior wood, water staining or water leaks.

...and that is it.

You have just described a mid size modern catamaran like a Nautitec 46. See the first paragraph of post#71

 

[flaming]

OK .... here's my take on the what makes a blue water cruiser

What the majority of "blue water sailors" do is just live on their boats and enjoy anchorages, harbours, and coastal cruising - and when they've exhausted the places to visit, or simply got bored, then they prep the boat for a passage, sort out their provisions, look for a suitable weather window and knuckle down to spending weeks at sea to get to the next interesting destination where they go back to coastal cruising again. I would certainly see this as my preferred form of "blue water cruising" simply because spending weeks at sea is boring, repetitive, and tiring - with an occasional bit of adrenaline/angst thrown in for good measure.

There are various numbers knocking about as to the ratio of time spent actually ocean sailing compared to coastal cruising, and it is always very heavily biased towards coastal cruising - unless your name is Moitessier, and mine isn't.

I am planning my retirement in a few years, and my plan is to up-size from my previous boat (36ft Bav) to something around 42ft and prepare it for long-term liveaboard life. I will start in the eastern Mediterranean and if it works out that way, I may well head further afield, so crossing oceans is on my list of things this next boat needs to be able to do, but not it's primary purpose.
The thing is, pretty much every boat built in the last 20-30 years can, and is, doing this. How suitable they are is simply a matter of opinion and preference.

Because of this, my "blue water cruiser" requirements have nothing to do with "skeg-hung rudders", "heavily built", "good in a seaway", "gentle motion", or any other criteria intended to push the doubting into older more traditionally built vessels.

My criteria, in no particular order ....

Must have space on board for loads of solar, lithium, and another means of generating power like a generator or large alternator/regulator combo specifically for charging lithium as fast as possible - I want to fit all this myself to get it exactly how I want it.

Must have plotter(helm and chart table), bombproof below deck autopilot, wind, speed, depth, and all be NMEA2000 networked so I can monitor everything from tanks to energy flow to engine. Again I will fit all this myself with the exception of the autopilot.

The boat must have a freezer, a fridge, a water maker, a washing machine, an espresso machine, a toaster, a microwave, a thermomix and a galley big enough for two people to work in. The fridge and freezer need to be either drawer or front opening, pet hate is digging through layers of food in a dark box with a puddle at the bottom. I don't mind gas for cooking, but if I can go induction hob and electric oven I will.

The boat must have a good sized head with a separate shower that can be closed off with a shower curtain or screen.

The boat must have at least 3 good sized double cabins and a comfortable chart table. Lee cloths can be retrofitted at little cost, and it's easier to turn a cabin into storage space, than the other way round.

I want to be able to sit up in bed with a cup of coffee and look out of a window, the interior needs to be well lit and well ventilated, and I don't want dark wood everywhere - it has to be somewhere between a traditional mahogany interior and a loft apartment - with no flimsy fittings - basically it's an "is this a nice space" question.

I want a big, well shaded cockpit with seating for 6-8 people in comfort, a bathing platform or sugar scoop with ladder offering easy access to the water for swimming/watersports/getting stuff in and out of the tender. I don't want to have to squeeze past people, rigging, sheets, straps, poles, wheels, or tables to get around the boat. I don't want a cockpit surrounded by an assault course of obstacles.

All sheets should be stowable out of harms way, the mainsheet blocks etc. need to be out of the cockpit, and the boom well above the sprayhood and bimini. Sheets controllable from the helm would be nice, as would plenty of winches and clutches to make swapping lines on winches easy. Electric winches would also be nice.

I want a big, reliable engine and around 7 knots cruising speed - no preference for shaft or saildrive.

I want roller furling everything - main, genoa and code-zero - bonus points if an inner forestay can be fitted, but not essential.

I want a big anchor locker with a sturdy, powerful windlass capable of both rope and chain.

I want midship cleats and stanchion gates.

I want a bow thruster, never had one before and never missed it, but it adds to the maneuvering options. The boat must be easily maneuverable in both ahead and astern, and I don't want the engine control at floor level.

No teak deck, just moulded gelcoat. Teak in the cockpit OK as long as it isn't worn out.

Bilges must be dry, clean and neutral smelling - want to use them as a wine cellar and storage so the only maintenance needs to be the occasional vacuuming out.

Sturdy gangway, outboard crane, solar arch.

Foredeck suitable for sunbathing.

Double anchor roller.

Must not have DIY disasters, random equipment/decorations fixed all over the inside of the boat - screw holes, discoloured veneer, damaged interior wood, water staining or water leaks.

...and that is it.

JPK 45 FC - Chien Fou — JPK Composites

 

[B27]

I've also noticed that the less experienced people tend to go straight to a big, new, catamaran with all the bells and whistles. Generally this involves selling their house. It's a huge leap of faith.

The smaller/cheaper/simpler boats are more likely to belong to more experienced people.

It's not a hard and fast rule, just an observation based on my own experiences.

That aligns with a few people I know.

The people around here aspiring to ocean sailing seem to be split into two groups.
Firstly couple wanting to go long distance and live permanently on the boat.
Secondly blokes wanting to do things like the AZAB or Jester on smaller, lower budget boats.
These are all people with many years' sailing.

Then there's the youtube viewer types selling property to buy shiny boats.....

 

[flaming]

I've also noticed that the less experienced people tend to go straight to a big, new, catamaran with all the bells and whistles. Generally this involves selling their house. It's a huge leap of faith.

The smaller/cheaper/simpler boats are more likely to belong to more experienced people.

It's not a hard and fast rule, just an observation based on my own experiences.

Isn't a part of this that if you've been into sailing for a while, to gain that experience, you have probably spent a lot of money on boats, and possibly compromised your career slightly to prioritise more time on boats....
So the person who didn't do that will have more money available....

Said partly in jest....

 

[Wansworth]

Just another angle…..I know of three boats that fitted out for the life on the ocean wave or forieign marina berth that have returned to the 9 to5 and their life ashore,certainly this is a factor that everyone must be agreed on.

 

[Tranona]

Isn't a part of this that if you've been into sailing for a while, to gain that experience, you have probably spent a lot of money on boats, and possibly compromised your career slightly to prioritise more time on boats....
So the person who didn't do that will have more money available....

Said partly in jest....

Don't forget the changing of wives/partners on the way, maybe connected with the focus on boats. both activities big consumer of money and time.

 

[magicol]

Thank you everyone! This is the great strength of the YBW Forum. Much knowledge, expertise and information; and if there is some debate that too helps to feed the final decision making.
I should have said that the couple concerned currently work abroad. Hunting for the right boat is restricted to the internet so the purchase is unlikely until next spring or later when they have the time to look at potential boats. However the planning is being done now and there is so much here to help them. They have been looking intently at the specific suggestions and more widely at the types of boats indicated here.
Coincidentally, I have just returned this week from a short passage on a Victoria and saw at first hand one of the key paradoxes of their eventual choice: great seagoing ability, calm, considerate and very safe in heavy weather but without some of the other comforts of my more modern Hanse. I know which one I’d rather be aboard in 30 knots and above. But it’s probably not the one I’d prefer island hopping with my wife in the Caribbean.
Equally interesting, important and central to kitting out their boat has been the discussion around fittings and upgrades. Lists are currently being made, amended and then amended again so thank you for all these comments on the essentials for liveaboard and blue water sailing.
And finally, like many on the forum, I sadly, won’t be taking part in this adventure but it’s great fun researching, discussing and helping to plan for it.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

JPK 45 FC - Chien Fou — JPK Composites

.... yes please!!! , but unfortunately beyond my budget.

 

[newtothis]

OK .... here's my take on the what makes a blue water cruiser

What the majority of "blue water sailors" do is just live on their boats and enjoy anchorages, harbours, and coastal cruising - and when they've exhausted the places to visit, or simply got bored, then they prep the boat for a passage, sort out their provisions, look for a suitable weather window and knuckle down to spending weeks at sea to get to the next interesting destination where they go back to coastal cruising again. I would certainly see this as my preferred form of "blue water cruising" simply because spending weeks at sea is boring, repetitive, and tiring - with an occasional bit of adrenaline/angst thrown in for good measure.

There are various numbers knocking about as to the ratio of time spent actually ocean sailing compared to coastal cruising, and it is always very heavily biased towards coastal cruising - unless your name is Moitessier, and mine isn't.

I am planning my retirement in a few years, and my plan is to up-size from my previous boat (36ft Bav) to something around 42ft and prepare it for long-term liveaboard life. I will start in the eastern Mediterranean and if it works out that way, I may well head further afield, so crossing oceans is on my list of things this next boat needs to be able to do, but not it's primary purpose.
The thing is, pretty much every boat built in the last 20-30 years can, and is, doing this. How suitable they are is simply a matter of opinion and preference.

Because of this, my "blue water cruiser" requirements have nothing to do with "skeg-hung rudders", "heavily built", "good in a seaway", "gentle motion", or any other criteria intended to push the doubting into older more traditionally built vessels.

My criteria, in no particular order ....

Must have space on board for loads of solar, lithium, and another means of generating power like a generator or large alternator/regulator combo specifically for charging lithium as fast as possible - I want to fit all this myself to get it exactly how I want it.

Must have plotter(helm and chart table), bombproof below deck autopilot, wind, speed, depth, and all be NMEA2000 networked so I can monitor everything from tanks to energy flow to engine. Again I will fit all this myself with the exception of the autopilot.

The boat must have a freezer, a fridge, a water maker, a washing machine, an espresso machine, a toaster, a microwave, a thermomix and a galley big enough for two people to work in. The fridge and freezer need to be either drawer or front opening, pet hate is digging through layers of food in a dark box with a puddle at the bottom. I don't mind gas for cooking, but if I can go induction hob and electric oven I will.

The boat must have a good sized head with a separate shower that can be closed off with a shower curtain or screen.

The boat must have at least 3 good sized double cabins and a comfortable chart table. Lee cloths can be retrofitted at little cost, and it's easier to turn a cabin into storage space, than the other way round.

I want to be able to sit up in bed with a cup of coffee and look out of a window, the interior needs to be well lit and well ventilated, and I don't want dark wood everywhere - it has to be somewhere between a traditional mahogany interior and a loft apartment - with no flimsy fittings - basically it's an "is this a nice space" question.

I want a big, well shaded cockpit with seating for 6-8 people in comfort, a bathing platform or sugar scoop with ladder offering easy access to the water for swimming/watersports/getting stuff in and out of the tender. I don't want to have to squeeze past people, rigging, sheets, straps, poles, wheels, or tables to get around the boat. I don't want a cockpit surrounded by an assault course of obstacles.

All sheets should be stowable out of harms way, the mainsheet blocks etc. need to be out of the cockpit, and the boom well above the sprayhood and bimini. Sheets controllable from the helm would be nice, as would plenty of winches and clutches to make swapping lines on winches easy. Electric winches would also be nice.

I want a big, reliable engine and around 7 knots cruising speed - no preference for shaft or saildrive.

I want roller furling everything - main, genoa and code-zero - bonus points if an inner forestay can be fitted, but not essential.

I want a big anchor locker with a sturdy, powerful windlass capable of both rope and chain.

I want midship cleats and stanchion gates.

I want a bow thruster, never had one before and never missed it, but it adds to the maneuvering options. The boat must be easily maneuverable in both ahead and astern, and I don't want the engine control at floor level.

No teak deck, just moulded gelcoat. Teak in the cockpit OK as long as it isn't worn out.

Bilges must be dry, clean and neutral smelling - want to use them as a wine cellar and storage so the only maintenance needs to be the occasional vacuuming out.

Sturdy gangway, outboard crane, solar arch.

Foredeck suitable for sunbathing.

Double anchor roller.

Must not have DIY disasters, random equipment/decorations fixed all over the inside of the boat - screw holes, discoloured veneer, damaged interior wood, water staining or water leaks.

...and that is it.

So you're asking for a slightly longer Anderson 22, right?

 

[Wansworth]

Macwester 26,might fit the bill with some mods

 

[Baggywrinkle]

You have just described a mid size modern catamaran like a Nautitec 46. See the first paragraph of post#71

... I did didn't I .... should of added something about running costs, specifically marina fees and that I personally prefer monohulls.

 

[DownWest]

Enjoyed this thread, with much entrenched thinking and a lot of more modern realism. Currently reading the Pardies Med cruise on Seraphyn (24ft gaff cutter) . Several meetings with friends in other yachts in sizes up to about 40ft, considered large then. But, like Shrimpy, they managed on limited conditions to get 'out there'
Many of the places that just welcomed them as fellow seamen, now would see them as just a source of income.
As said, 'Cruising' is now not a goal for keen sailers, who managed to find enough spare loot to spend a few months or years to live the dream, but more an 'experience' for people with a bit more to fund the trip. Nothing wrong with that. But the expectations of life afloat are very different now.

 

[Wansworth]

Galicia had a crappy marina back in 1981 in Coruna,other ports till you reached Baiona just had anchourages or grabbing a space on a quay or alongside a fishing boat.There was more contact with the local people and fishermen,now since the “Prestige “ disaster marinas have been built.At one time it was possible to wander alone the quay and chat with visitors now they are locked safely in the marinas

 

[DownWest]

And, back in about '90. I helped a friend set off from Vilamoura for the Carib. 27ft wooden sloop. He went on to be a respected surveyor out there. One of his kids is just kitting out to do the transat. Much bigger and well fitted out modern GRP boat, standards change....

 

[john_morris_uk]

And, back in about '90. I helped a friend set off from Vilamoura for the Carib. 27ft wooden sloop. He went on to be a respected surveyor out there. One of his kids is just kitting out to do the transat. Much bigger and well fitted out modern GRP boat, standards change....

Indeed. But technology changes as well. If reliable engines and solar panels and energy efficient water makers had been available at reasonable prices back then, who says this back then wouldn’t have grabbed them.

We could move on to discuss modern fabrics and huge advances in boat design if you want?

 

[geem]

+1.

As you see many will recommend 30+ year old British boats which were the in thing in those days and are still popular with a minority. It has to be a minority because they were built in penny numbers and the choice available on the market is very limited. It is not necessary to restrict yourself to those sorts of boats as the majority who do this sort of thing choose something different.

The Bavaria in post#5 is a good example. extremely well equipped, seemingly good condition and even at the rather high price would cost less than trying to buy, say an old Westerly or Moody and equip it to the same level. Europeans doing the same thing never really had access to the old British boats, so to them choosing a boat like the Bavaria would be quite normal. You see them (and equivalents from Beneteau, Jeanneau, Dufour etc) all round the world doing exactly the same thing as the Brits in their choice of boats - and of course many Brits like the owner of this one have chosen differently.

Best advice is to keep an open mind about boat choice - success comes more from the crew than the boat, buy as good and well equipped boat as possible - refits and upgrades gobble money. This won't be a lifetime purchase - it is a means to an end, and when the end comes they need to be able to sell it and move on.

Last bit of advice. This is not untrod ground. There is masses of information, blogs, books, magazines, youtubes forums like this to look at for ideas. The overriding message is that there is no "right" way of going about it, just patterns

There are a number French cruisers here in the Caribbean in old British boats.
We see the cruising world differently here as we have boats from all over the globe. Yes we see lots of French Jen, Bav and a few Bavarias but with the USA not being too far away, there are loads of old Amercian boats as well. The biggest change in recent years is the massive growth in catamarans. If you just want to live afloat and cruise around the Caribbean its hard to beat a cat. If you want to cross oceans then you can optimise your choice with a good ocean boat or cross in a Hurley 18 as a friend did recently ( both ways).
I have lost count of the number of people that have ocean sailed in common production boats that say in the future they would like a more substantial boat for the job, but it didn't stop them doing it

 

[Wansworth]

As has been said many times it’s the crew matters most

 

[Tranona]

I have lost count of the number of people that have ocean sailed in common production boats that say in the future they would like a more substantial boat for the job, but it didn't stop them doing it

That is always the case that experience may change your views, but the reality is that the number of "substantial" boats available is limited because of the costs of building and running them so people seek the best compromise in their budget. No different to any other high capital purchase - house, plane, car, horse. People seek to maximise their utility within their budget constraints and the options open to them.

Many people, like this couple are planning a time constrained project, not a lifetime of living aboard (although they may catch the bug!) and the boat is a means to an end, not a lifetime commitment. That is why so many use production boats (and cats!). They are affordable, do the job and sell on easily when the project is completed.

 

[lustyd]

I have lost count of the number of people that have ocean sailed in common production boats that say in the future they would like a more substantial boat for the job, but it didn't stop them doing it

The bigger question though is a couple of months after arriving how many in “ocean going” designs wish their boat was more comfortable to live on, more spacious, or had a bigger cockpit? It’s all a compromise but there are considerably more days spent not crossing oceans.

 

[capnsensible]

We can all dream of a bigger boat, bigger car, bigger house, yadda yadda. Thing is, once a choice have been made, it seems to me from seeing and chatting to other cruisers, most know they have made their choice, usually for fiscal reasons and then get on with it. Then the yacht becomes the tool for the finest way ever invented to travel the world....