Liveaboard and blue water recommendations

[Wansworth]

I wish I had had that sort of budget. We spent around £6k on upgrades before we left, which was enough to do
- new dinghy
- electric windlass
- self tailers
- freezer
- 1120w solar panels
- lithium battery
- 3kw inverter, wiring, etc
- standing rigging
- Hydrovane

Almost none of the above was bought new. But we had two years to watch for bargains on eBay.
There's been another £4k or so since then. The mid price inverter died (bad luck, or false economy?) and was replaced with a brand new Victron (ouch). The cheap secondhand Hydrovane needed £1k spent on it for a different shaft and replacing missing parts. Etc etc.
So I well believe the £20-30k figure is realistic, but it's also possible to cut that number substantially.

In properPBO style……I must admit talking in 100,000 to fit out and buy a yacht just seems all wrong

 

[Kelpie]

In properPBO style……I must admit talking in 100,000 to fit out and buy a yacht just seems all wrong

There's people (usually single, young, and French) out here in distinctly home made looking boats who have successfully crossed the Atlantic and are clearly on a very tight budget but making it work. Fair play to them.
One of the things that struck me when we arrived in the anchorage at Las Palmas was that, after a year in the Med, we were no longer surrounded by indistinguishable AWBs. Instead, there was a whole variety of different yachts of all types and sizes- and budgets. We felt like we fitted in, for once.

 

[Wansworth]

I suppose it’s a measure of expectation…pay a 100,000 quid and you hopefully have a seemless long vacation……obviously I am out of the loop but although I didn’t get further than Galicia the boat could have ventures much further,with the most minimal of equipment,but not forgoing essential stuff like anchours compass etcIt was secondhand ,cost 2500 quid but with a new secondhand mast new sails it was adequate.There are now even more sources of secondhand stuff.……..not being total equipped can lead to a more adventurous time……setting off in a sailing boat is by definition an adventure although throwing money at it can just reduce it to mundane….

 

[lustyd]

pay a 100,000 quid and you hopefully have a seemless long vacation

Come on now, you know boats don't work like that! You could buy a £1M brand new boat and have just as many issues. I recall someone on this forum bought a new large yacht (seventy something feet I think) and had the whole furler fail on the first sail. The guy opposite me had his VHF and AIS wired wrong from the factory and didn't work at all.
Probably the best advice to them would be hold back £40-50k for fixing en route!

 

[Tradewinds]

As someone that's been there and 'done'it' I would make the observation that some of the cruisers on so-called budget boats and income had the best of times and tended to interact with the locals to a greater degree than those on 'holiday budgets' who often ended up in the bars and restaurants with like-minded cruisers. I was definitely on the budget side although quite well off in comparison to others. As to boats - there are all sorts out there beyond the ideal world of this forum. Most of them having the time of their lives - but importantly they are out there doing it rather than sifting through the minutae on here.

Good on em, I say.

 

[Kelpie]

As someone that's been there and 'done'it' I would make the observation that some of the cruisers on so-called budget boats and income had the best of times and tended to interact with the locals to a greater degree than those on 'holiday budgets' who often ended up in the bars and restaurants with like-minded cruisers. I was definitely on the budget side although quite well off in comparison to others. As to boats - there are all sorts out there beyond the ideal world of this forum. Most of them having the time of their lives - but importantly they are out there doing it rather than sifting through the minutae on here.

Good on em, I say.

I've also noticed that the less experienced people tend to go straight to a big, new, catamaran with all the bells and whistles. Generally this involves selling their house. It's a huge leap of faith.

The smaller/cheaper/simpler boats are more likely to belong to more experienced people.

It's not a hard and fast rule, just an observation based on my own experiences.

 

[Tranona]

I wish I had had that sort of budget. We spent around £6k on upgrades before we left, which was enough to do
- new dinghy
- electric windlass
- self tailers
- freezer
- 1120w solar panels
- lithium battery
- 3kw inverter, wiring, etc
- standing rigging
- Hydrovane

Almost none of the above was bought new. But we had two years to watch for bargains on eBay.
There's been another £4k or so since then. The mid price inverter died (bad luck, or false economy?) and was replaced with a brand new Victron (ouch). The cheap secondhand Hydrovane needed £1k spent on it for a different shaft and replacing missing parts. Etc etc.
So I well believe the £20-30k figure is realistic, but it's also possible to cut that number substantially.

Again going back to the Bavaria in post#4, quick sum up of the new or replacement kit from 2019 to today got to £30k with nothing apart from a watermaker and windvane that would be out of the ordinary for a 20 year old AWB. New sails and rigging accounts for over £10k of that.

However the actual money spent will go on different things depending on the state of the boat that you buy and the desired final state. A boat like this (and the Oceanquest) with all the basics in good order and much of the additional expenditure largely discretionary is arguably a better choice than one where the basics won't last the life of the project.

 

[Roberto]

Oh the other thing I would look for, or more likely add, is canvas work for shade. Not just a bimini but full covers for the deck, and side panels that block the light at lower angles too. I've seen some really smart setups which zip on to the side of the boom, or which use the spinny pole as a ridge for a foredeck tent.

It's one of those things where you can improvise using tarps and beach towels, but after the twentieth time you've rigged it up, or the fiftieth time it's flapped in the middle of the night and woken you up, you start to get a bit jealous of everybody else with their smart well fitted bespoke canvas.

Indeed, I made this and it suited us very well: zip on the fore edge of the bimini, lateral flaps with hooks, shaped as to convey air from the front, the aft lower edge had a through hull to recover rain water which accumulated there, etc. We could also "sail" a bit with the thing on, but the real advantage was the two then very young daughters could happily move over about one half of the boat without getting sunburnt.

 

[lustyd]

The smaller/cheaper/simpler boats are more likely to belong to more experienced people.

Well this is demonstrably wrong since the vast majority of sailors start with small boats when young and upgrade as time and experience progress. There is the odd exception where some wealthy person decides to buy a 50 footer, but those are few and far between.

I call sour grapes on this one.

 

[Kelpie]

Well this is demonstrably wrong since the vast majority of sailors start with small boats when young and upgrade as time and experience progress. There is the odd exception where some wealthy person decides to buy a 50 footer, but those are few and far between.

I call sour grapes on this one.

Maybe it's to do with the circles we move in.
Most of the other cruisers we meet are families. Not that families are the majority, but because that's who we're looking for to hang out with.
Most of the time when you meet a family on a nearly new 40ft+ Lagoon or FP, it's their first boat. I was really surprised that so many people jump straight in without even learning to sail a dinghy first.

The expectations some people have are quite remarkable. Watermaker, washing machine, huge RIB with minimum 15hp, every water toy under the sun. And obviously a cabin each plus a spare for guests.

Note here that I'm specifically taking about full time liveaboards. For your average weekend sailor who has not sold their house, obviously they're going to start with a smaller boat.

 

[Tranona]

Well this is demonstrably wrong since the vast majority of sailors start with small boats when young and upgrade as time and experience progress. There is the odd exception where some wealthy person decides to buy a 50 footer, but those are few and far between.

I call sour grapes on this one.

That is a sweeping statement that hides all sorts of patterns of behaviour. While it is fair to say that the start small and trade up is common, particularly in the UK it is not true of the larger new boat market, particularly for boats aimed at long term cruisers. As Kelpie says there are many people who come into funds later in life (sale of business, home, inheritance etc) and decide to go sailing. Increasingly many are able to do that even while young enough to have a family to take with them or before they have a family. In part that explains the popularity of boats like the cats which replicate as far as possible living accommodation on land. The other significant group are retirees with or without a background of starting sailing at the bottom. Very few new boat buyers (in my experience of working around boat dealers and brokers) are "in the middle" as they are mostly not in the position to buy a new boat and if they want to own a cruiser find plenty of affordable choice in the used boat market at a fraction of the capital cost of new (although often with the same running costs)

This pattern is even more noticeable in Europe where a significant part of the population do not live in places where there is local sailing that underpins the trading up model. Their background is more likely through chartering, catching the bug and jumping into buying a boat similar to the ones they have been chartering.

The post that started this thread is a couple in their 30s with some experience who are in a position to fund a 3 year sabbatical and £100k for a boat. Not quite new boat money, but not difficult to imagine couples in similar situations with maybe an inheritance from one of the many £1m+ estates based on inflated property values choosing to invest half a million in a reasonable new 40 footer for the 3 year sabbatical. I could see my eldest grandson being in that sort of position in 10 years time with his share of our estate. He is in a high paid career at an early age such that he can afford to buy his own house at the age of 20. If he keeps up his skills should easily be able to take a sabbatical when he is 30, buy a capital asset like a boat or motorhome and go travelling, living off his rental income and confident of getting back into the jobs market.

In case you think that there is anything new about this it was similar in the 1970s. Many of the people who bought Golden Hinds like mine were first time buyers, often from the US who pitched up in Plymouth, had a boat built learned to sail and went west with it.

Very few people in the UK buy a new cruising boat. As you may know, I have been on this forum for over 15 years and I am one of the few members, even when it was far bigger than it is now who has actually bought a new boat in modern times - and even fewer have bought 2 new boats. Sure many older people have bought new boats at the lower end many years ago, probably as kits (as I did). This is less true of the MOBO forum where several longstanding members (or past members) have bought new boats.

 

[doug748]

I didn’t say only a Westerly. I’ll support Tradewind, Sigma 36, Moody and almost any number of boats within budget.

I’ve done a fair bit of examining and sailing on Bavarias of the age and model referred to. It’s one one of the few ‘cruising’ yachts I know that can broach in a gust when going upwind. It’s possible to sail them but there are so many boats with far better sailing manners. The kit on board might be good but other well equipment boats are around.

Don’t dismiss the impounded boat idea. I knew someone who picked up an absolute bargain through those channels.

They do gripe beyond the limits of control when overpressed . I once saw one struggle to get into Fowey against a strong noser, he spent a deal of time facing the wrong way.

I spent a week on one in 2007, it was great at what it did well. I have always suggested them as a good buy.

To paraphrase Clint Eastwood: ' You just gotta know your limitations'

.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

OK .... here's my take on the what makes a blue water cruiser

What the majority of "blue water sailors" do is just live on their boats and enjoy anchorages, harbours, and coastal cruising - and when they've exhausted the places to visit, or simply got bored, then they prep the boat for a passage, sort out their provisions, look for a suitable weather window and knuckle down to spending weeks at sea to get to the next interesting destination where they go back to coastal cruising again. I would certainly see this as my preferred form of "blue water cruising" simply because spending weeks at sea is boring, repetitive, and tiring - with an occasional bit of adrenaline/angst thrown in for good measure.

There are various numbers knocking about as to the ratio of time spent actually ocean sailing compared to coastal cruising, and it is always very heavily biased towards coastal cruising - unless your name is Moitessier, and mine isn't.

I am planning my retirement in a few years, and my plan is to up-size from my previous boat (36ft Bav) to something around 42ft and prepare it for long-term liveaboard life. I will start in the eastern Mediterranean and if it works out that way, I may well head further afield, so crossing oceans is on my list of things this next boat needs to be able to do, but not it's primary purpose.
The thing is, pretty much every boat built in the last 20-30 years can, and is, doing this. How suitable they are is simply a matter of opinion and preference.

Because of this, my "blue water cruiser" requirements have nothing to do with "skeg-hung rudders", "heavily built", "good in a seaway", "gentle motion", or any other criteria intended to push the doubting into older more traditionally built vessels.

My criteria, in no particular order ....

Must have space on board for loads of solar, lithium, and another means of generating power like a generator or large alternator/regulator combo specifically for charging lithium as fast as possible - I want to fit all this myself to get it exactly how I want it.

Must have plotter(helm and chart table), bombproof below deck autopilot, wind, speed, depth, and all be NMEA2000 networked so I can monitor everything from tanks to energy flow to engine. Again I will fit all this myself with the exception of the autopilot.

The boat must have a freezer, a fridge, a water maker, a washing machine, an espresso machine, a toaster, a microwave, a thermomix and a galley big enough for two people to work in. The fridge and freezer need to be either drawer or front opening, pet hate is digging through layers of food in a dark box with a puddle at the bottom. I don't mind gas for cooking, but if I can go induction hob and electric oven I will.

The boat must have a good sized head with a separate shower that can be closed off with a shower curtain or screen.

The boat must have at least 3 good sized double cabins and a comfortable chart table. Lee cloths can be retrofitted at little cost, and it's easier to turn a cabin into storage space, than the other way round.

I want to be able to sit up in bed with a cup of coffee and look out of a window, the interior needs to be well lit and well ventilated, and I don't want dark wood everywhere - it has to be somewhere between a traditional mahogany interior and a loft apartment - with no flimsy fittings - basically it's an "is this a nice space" question.

I want a big, well shaded cockpit with seating for 6-8 people in comfort, a bathing platform or sugar scoop with ladder offering easy access to the water for swimming/watersports/getting stuff in and out of the tender. I don't want to have to squeeze past people, rigging, sheets, straps, poles, wheels, or tables to get around the boat. I don't want a cockpit surrounded by an assault course of obstacles.

All sheets should be stowable out of harms way, the mainsheet blocks etc. need to be out of the cockpit, and the boom well above the sprayhood and bimini. Sheets controllable from the helm would be nice, as would plenty of winches and clutches to make swapping lines on winches easy. Electric winches would also be nice.

I want a big, reliable engine and around 7 knots cruising speed - no preference for shaft or saildrive.

I want roller furling everything - main, genoa and code-zero - bonus points if an inner forestay can be fitted, but not essential.

I want a big anchor locker with a sturdy, powerful windlass capable of both rope and chain.

I want midship cleats and stanchion gates.

I want a bow thruster, never had one before and never missed it, but it adds to the maneuvering options. The boat must be easily maneuverable in both ahead and astern, and I don't want the engine control at floor level.

No teak deck, just moulded gelcoat. Teak in the cockpit OK as long as it isn't worn out.

Bilges must be dry, clean and neutral smelling - want to use them as a wine cellar and storage so the only maintenance needs to be the occasional vacuuming out.

Sturdy gangway, outboard crane, solar arch.

Foredeck suitable for sunbathing.

Double anchor roller.

Must not have DIY disasters, random equipment/decorations fixed all over the inside of the boat - screw holes, discoloured veneer, damaged interior wood, water staining or water leaks.

...and that is it.

 

[penfold]

Do you want the moon on a stick too?

 

[Frank Holden]

Only one way to go - the Westerly Sealord is the "perfect offshore tiger" .

Sorry- the devil made me do it and somebody had to say it.

That said - mine at time of purchase was 8 yo and a third of a way through a circumnavigation ( 29 years later it is now 2/3rds of the way )
Three weeks later the mast fell down.

Despite being the perfect boat it does not have a skeg hung rudder.

I agree with Kelpie above - must do pre-departure items/expenses would include electric windlass, standing rigging , self steerer - and sails.

Sighted this in Papeete 9 years ago... had arrived ex the Americas ... owner said it only needed a few stitches...

 

[capnsensible]

They do gripe beyond the limits of control when overpressed . I once saw one struggle to get into Fowey against a strong noser, he spent a deal of time facing the wrong way.

I spent a week on one in 2007, it was great at what it did well. I have always suggested them as a good buy.

To paraphrase Clint Eastwood: ' You just gotta know your limitations'

.

Yup, trim them thar sails.

 

[bitbaltic]

Just to put the "rounding up" issue to bed. Most of the J&J designed boats of the late 90s early 2000s have this tendency for 2 reasons. First some (like the very popular 34, 36 and my 37 - which were actually 35, 37 and 38 long!) were relatively light displacement (180 Disp/L) and the standard sailplan (SA/Disp 21) had a large 135% genoa because the prime market was light wind Med markets. The original sails were also pretty dire and full cut even when new before they quickly went baggy. Many UK boats changed to 115% genoas and fully battened sails (like this one, I suspect) and you have a different boat altogether. I did not keep my 37 long enough to change sails from the standard size (actually replacements I had made in Greece) but when I got the boat back to UK I always found it sailed better and more predictably with 2 or 3 rolls in the genoa. I sold the boat and replaced it with a new Farr designed 33 which was a completely different design with a more balanced rig and 106% foresail. I know it is heresy, but a furling main with a decent sail makes it much easier to balance the sail area, particularly in that 16-20 knot windspeed range when a first reef is too big a reduction in sail area.

It’s drive from the mainsail overpowering the foresail which causes rounding up or broaching for a fin keeled yacht. I’ve sailed lots of naughties-era Bavarias and continue to own a small, shallow-keeled Hanse with a comparably shallow forefoot. On boats like this you manage broaching tendencies by dumping or later reefing the main, later as wind increases by shortening the foresail proportionately. I don’t recognise John’s singling out of Bavarias for this tendency as it applies to all modern cruisers with a shallow forefoot. It’s a non issue if these are the boats you learned to sail on which- as time goes by- is most of us I think.

Edit to add I guess what you were saying is early boats with overlapping genoas added drive behind the keel. That’s still not a fault in the boat it’s simple reefing to conditions.

 

[Wansworth]

OK .... here's my take on the what makes a blue water cruiser

What the majority of "blue water sailors" do is just live on their boats and enjoy anchorages, harbours, and coastal cruising - and when they've exhausted the places to visit, or simply got bored, then they prep the boat for a passage, sort out their provisions, look for a suitable weather window and knuckle down to spending weeks at sea to get to the next interesting destination where they go back to coastal cruising again. I would certainly see this as my preferred form of "blue water cruising" simply because spending weeks at sea is boring, repetitive, and tiring - with an occasional bit of adrenaline/angst thrown in for good measure.

There are various numbers knocking about as to the ratio of time spent actually ocean sailing compared to coastal cruising, and it is always very heavily biased towards coastal cruising - unless your name is Moitessier, and mine isn't.

I am planning my retirement in a few years, and my plan is to up-size from my previous boat (36ft Bav) to something around 42ft and prepare it for long-term liveaboard life. I will start in the eastern Mediterranean and if it works out that way, I may well head further afield, so crossing oceans is on my list of things this next boat needs to be able to do, but not it's primary purpose.
The thing is, pretty much every boat built in the last 20-30 years can, and is, doing this. How suitable they are is simply a matter of opinion and preference.

Because of this, my "blue water cruiser" requirements have nothing to do with "skeg-hung rudders", "heavily built", "good in a seaway", "gentle motion", or any other criteria intended to push the doubting into older more traditionally built vessels.

My criteria, in no particular order ....

Must have space on board for loads of solar, lithium, and another means of generating power like a generator or large alternator/regulator combo specifically for charging lithium as fast as possible - I want to fit all this myself to get it exactly how I want it.

Must have plotter(helm and chart table), bombproof below deck autopilot, wind, speed, depth, and all be NMEA2000 networked so I can monitor everything from tanks to energy flow to engine. Again I will fit all this myself with the exception of the autopilot.

The boat must have a freezer, a fridge, a water maker, a washing machine, an espresso machine, a toaster, a microwave, a thermomix and a galley big enough for two people to work in. The fridge and freezer need to be either drawer or front opening, pet hate is digging through layers of food in a dark box with a puddle at the bottom. I don't mind gas for cooking, but if I can go induction hob and electric oven I will.

The boat must have a good sized head with a separate shower that can be closed off with a shower curtain or screen.

The boat must have at least 3 good sized double cabins and a comfortable chart table. Lee cloths can be retrofitted at little cost, and it's easier to turn a cabin into storage space, than the other way round.

I want to be able to sit up in bed with a cup of coffee and look out of a window, the interior needs to be well lit and well ventilated, and I don't want dark wood everywhere - it has to be somewhere between a traditional mahogany interior and a loft apartment - with no flimsy fittings - basically it's an "is this a nice space" question.

I want a big, well shaded cockpit with seating for 6-8 people in comfort, a bathing platform or sugar scoop with ladder offering easy access to the water for swimming/watersports/getting stuff in and out of the tender. I don't want to have to squeeze past people, rigging, sheets, straps, poles, wheels, or tables to get around the boat. I don't want a cockpit surrounded by an assault course of obstacles.

All sheets should be stowable out of harms way, the mainsheet blocks etc. need to be out of the cockpit, and the boom well above the sprayhood and bimini. Sheets controllable from the helm would be nice, as would plenty of winches and clutches to make swapping lines on winches easy. Electric winches would also be nice.

I want a big, reliable engine and around 7 knots cruising speed - no preference for shaft or saildrive.

I want roller furling everything - main, genoa and code-zero - bonus points if an inner forestay can be fitted, but not essential.

I want a big anchor locker with a sturdy, powerful windlass capable of both rope and chain.

I want midship cleats and stanchion gates.

I want a bow thruster, never had one before and never missed it, but it adds to the maneuvering options. The boat must be easily maneuverable in both ahead and astern, and I don't want the engine control at floor level.

No teak deck, just moulded gelcoat. Teak in the cockpit OK as long as it isn't worn out.

Bilges must be dry, clean and neutral smelling - want to use them as a wine cellar and storage so the only maintenance needs to be the occasional vacuuming out.

Sturdy gangway, outboard crane, solar arch.

Foredeck suitable for sunbathing.

Double anchor roller.

Must not have DIY disasters, random equipment/decorations fixed all over the inside of the boat - screw holes, discoloured veneer, damaged interior wood, water staining or water leaks.

...and that is it.

Sort of big 42 footer

 

[john_morris_uk]

It’s drive from the mainsail overpowering the foresail which causes rounding up or broaching for a fin keeled yacht. I’ve sailed lots of naughties-era Bavarias and continue to own a small, shallow-keeled Hanse with a comparably shallow forefoot. On boats like this you manage broaching tendencies by dumping or later reefing the main, later as wind increases by shortening the foresail proportionately. I don’t recognise John’s singling out of Bavarias for this tendency as it applies to all modern cruisers with a shallow forefoot. It’s a non issue if these are the boats you learned to sail on which- as time goes by- is most of us I think.

Edit to add I guess what you were saying is early boats with overlapping genoas added drive behind the keel. That’s still not a fault in the boat it’s simple reefing to conditions.

You maybe right but I’ve experienced uncontrolled griping up on Bavaria 32’s & 34’s more than other boats I’ve sailed. It’s not just the forefoot fault. It’s also the fat back ends that lift the rudder out of the water when the boat heels to a gust. Great for internal volume but makes the boats ill mannered.

I’d rather have boat that just leans over a bit more and sails faster when a gust hits.

 

[flaming]

You maybe right but I’ve experienced gybe griping up on Bavaria 32’s & 34’s more than other boats I’ve sailed. It’s not just the forefoot fault. It’s also the fat back ends that lift the rudder out of the water when the boat heels to a gust. Great for internal volume but makes the boats ill mannered.

I’d rather have boat that just leans over a bit more and sails faster when a gust hits.

Which is why most of the newer "fat bottom girls" have twin rudders. Nothing give you control quite like a rudder that is fully immersed and vertical at 20 degrees of heel. Having been driving a twin rudder boat for 6 years, coming from a more traditional c/r, the difference is night and day.

However, that said, if you are getting a lot of rounding up in a boat like the previous generation of Bav, a big cause is probably foresail leach tension. Next time you're sailing a boat like that and it happens try dropping the jib cars back a bit and see if that helps. Everyone always talks about dumping the main, or reefing the main, but actually if the leach of the jib is too straight that's one of the biggest causes of rounding up in fractionally rigged boats with fairly high aspect jibs.