Graham376
Well-known member
We are obviously seeing different boats. Looking around the yard we use (Bruce's) there are few long distance mass produced boats. Still a surprising number of steel, aluminium and 1980s boats.
Liveaboard and blue water recommendations
- Thread starter magicol
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We are obviously seeing different boats. Looking around the yard we use (Bruce's) there are few long distance mass produced boats. Still a surprising number of steel, aluminium and 1980s boats.
Tranona
Well-known member
Pleased that you have raised that issue, as I have tended to avoid such an observation in these debates in the past. I am from the same era as and held similar views to the point that when I got into a position to be able to buy the boat of my dreams I was actively looking to buy a Moody or Westerly for an eventual liveaboard life initially in the Med. I even chartered a Moody 37 to try it out. However the more I looked the more I became disenchanted on 2 fronts. The first is how unsuitable such boats were for use in the Med with their tiny centre cockpits and poor access to the water plus their gloomy cave like interiors. OK for living inside, but no good for enjoying an active lifestyle. The other was discovering what poor value they gave as used boats at around 10 years old, partly the basic poor standard of build and gear of some and partly how badly many I saw had stood up to a few year's hard work. Then chartering a Beneteau and then Bavaria and realising for similar money I could buy a new, and much more appropriate boat for much the same money.
I know the older designs are potentially more comfortable and capable in heavy weather - I am not stupid nor ill informed - after all I then owned and still own boats from the traditional deign era. My assessment is that on balance the downsides of those characteristics, particularly in the under 40' size range are too great and that on balance a more modern design is better value. In today's market this contrast is even greater. Effectively there are virtually no boats under 20 years old that follow the traditional design principles and the supply of good boats from earlier times is dwindling.
This forum is essentially UK centric and most members fit into the category you suggest. Their views reflect that. However along with the number of boats of the type they own their "share" of the cruising "market" is also dwindling and new entrants don't come with the same background views. A little more analysis of the ARC list reflects this. UK boats (40) represented less than 30% of the total but 55% of those were "old style" compared with 43% of the population as a whole. There were only 3 Moodys and 1 Westerly (a Konsort!).
While the ARC is only a subset of the ocean cruising "market" it does give lie to the claim by some that modern production boats are unsuitable for ocean sailing but also shows the trend of boat buying patterns.
Tranona
Well-known member
That exactly proves my point. A microcosm steeped in the past. Sorry to be so blunt. I could make a statement about the mix of boats in my club marina and moorings (500 boats) as being representative of UK sailing then go 25 miles down the road to Lymington to the similar size marinas there and see a very different mix.
doug748
Well-known member
"While the ARC is only a subset of the ocean cruising "market" it does give lie to the claim by some that modern production boats are unsuitable for ocean sailing but also shows the trend of boat buying patterns."
Indeed a subset. The average length of ARC boat is around 50ft and probably worth half a million pounds. There is very little below 40ft, probably 13 boats in the recent 6 fleets.
I see:
Vindo
Westerly Storm
She 36
Nordship 38
Rassy 352
Rustler 36
Westerly Oceanranger
Najad 391
Rassy Monsum 31
Ovni 365
Southerly 115
Elan E4
Bavaria Cruiser 38
So if people are choosing recent boats, in this case, they are being careful to choose very big ones. Lets recall that the OP (if he still exists) has family that are hoping to spend maybe 75 - 80 grand on the boat.
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Indeed a subset. The average length of ARC boat is around 50ft and probably worth half a million pounds. There is very little below 40ft, probably 13 boats in the recent 6 fleets.
I see:
Vindo
Westerly Storm
She 36
Nordship 38
Rassy 352
Rustler 36
Westerly Oceanranger
Najad 391
Rassy Monsum 31
Ovni 365
Southerly 115
Elan E4
Bavaria Cruiser 38
So if people are choosing recent boats, in this case, they are being careful to choose very big ones. Lets recall that the OP (if he still exists) has family that are hoping to spend maybe 75 - 80 grand on the boat.
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greeny
Well-known member
This a long thread and I haven't read all the posts but have you considered buying in the EU for VAT reasons. Then the boat doesn't have to leave every 6 months once you're over there. I assume they will be spending some time in Europe once they set off. Of course the 90 in 180 will affect the crew but it depends on their intended schedule method of cruising. If they're staying on the boat 365 then they would have to leave EU anyway so the boat Vat status probably won't matter. Just something to consider and maybe dismiss if not relevant.
Kelpie
Well-known member
The ARC is an easy source of stats but certainly does not given the full picture.
People do the ARC if they feel that £2k is not a lot of money, and if they either feel the need for some backup or wish to join a club for social reasons. Absolutely nothing wrong with any of that. We have friends who have done the ARC and enjoyed it. They also sold their house to buy a brand new catamaran costing ~20x what our boat cost. Just a different set of priorities. We visit the same anchorages and have the same view.
People do the ARC if they feel that £2k is not a lot of money, and if they either feel the need for some backup or wish to join a club for social reasons. Absolutely nothing wrong with any of that. We have friends who have done the ARC and enjoyed it. They also sold their house to buy a brand new catamaran costing ~20x what our boat cost. Just a different set of priorities. We visit the same anchorages and have the same view.
Graham376
Well-known member
Maybe you should have chartered a 376, same hull but with added sugar scoop for easier boarding and swimming. As with everything else in life, we all all like different things. Going back 18 years or so we had the choice of a new Bav, Ben, Jan or a used boat. Having looked around and sailed a couple of mass production models, decided we would rather spend on the used Moody and update, for roughly the same price as a basic new boat.
Have not been disappointed spending roughly 6-7 months aboard every year for the last 17 years and find it quite suitable for Algarve and western Med temperatures and not cramped in any way. As for build quality, I would suggest Moody and Westerly had a far better standard of build than the Bavarias and we don't find doors jamming closed when dried out alongside as happens with a mate's Bav
john_morris_uk
Well-known member
Agree 110%. I’ve met a few people who have done the ARC. and enjoyed it. Good luck to them. We didn’t think it was worth the £2k (for us) but so what? However those who are willing to pay and who buy into their sales pitch might be more inclined to buy a later design boat? Another reason we didn’t take part is that at 39’ we’d be one of the smallest boats in the fleet.
Each to their own but quoting stats from the ARC fleet says more about the demographics of those who join ARC than all those who cruise blue waters.
Tranona
Well-known member
You are right about size - but the statement that the ARC data was an answer to did not specify size - and indeed if you follow the posters writings on the subject he is always talking about (and criticising) boats of similar size to his (44.) not sub 40' "budget" cruisers. Note also that boats I linked to in direct response were both below 40' - one considerably so and modern equivalents to your list here.
As it happens this year's entry list includes 6 boats well under 40' - 2 "traditional", one an older catamaran and 3 from mass producers.
Whatever subset of the overall ocean cruising market you choose will only be representative of that subset, and people tend to choose that which supports their preferences. By doing so they ignore all the others that don't "fit". The ARC is, though a constant and its entry list reflects the trends towards bigger and more expensive boats and the growth of multihulls.
This forum (unsurprisingly) tends to be dominated by a particular view of the world that does not like to be challenged despite the evidence that view is a minority one. Catamarans is an example. They get slagged off regularly as not being "proper" boats or only suitable for charterers. Much of the criticism particularly about build quality is justified, but you can't ignore the fact that every year 30 of them manage to complete the ARC successfully and in general terms it is the big growth sector of the market.
There is a truism in social science research "a way of seeing is a way of not seeing". If you want to show that mass production boats are not "suitable" that is what you will find and construct your arguments to support that and concentrate your search for evidence on failures either real or imagined. This is nothing new and once that view of the world is established it is extremely difficult to challenge and change no matter how much hard verifiable evidence is presented. Karl Popper called this "empirical justification" - in other words for a particular view to be considered sound is has to stand up to empirical evidence that seeks to falsify it. So not difficult to show the statement "production boats are unsuitable...." can be falsified, but still some will hold onto this belief. Beliefs and long held certainties are very difficult to change.
Anyway, back to the OP. You are right, they are not in the ARC league as far as intentions or budget are concerned. The fact remains that if they only look at *traditional" for wont of a better descriptor boats in the sub £100k, 34-42' range their choice is severely limited, particularly if buying in the UK. A quick scan of the current listings show that there are around 10 Westerlys that fit, and most of those are the older, smaller, cheaper ones rather than the more desirable larger later models; 12 Moodys, 25 Bavarias, 25 Jeanneaus and 15 Beneteaus. Of course not all of these will be in a condition that will form a sound basis for the 3 year plan within budget, but rationally the boat has to fulfill a specific and time limited function unlike many boat purchases which may have to fill the buyer's view of their own personality. So casting the net wider enhances the chances of finding a boat that will "do the job".